5kop1760 MM - Bitkin R1 - grading U+

[sigistenz]

 

This is my latest acquisition - 5kop1760MM - it weighs a heavy 63.6 grams which means ~25% overweight!

For the Moscow standard of the time it is pretty well struck (look at St.George) but sadly enough somewhat corroded.

I would grade it a bold U+ (Ugly plus).

Sigi

[squirrel]

I disagree..... coin is BU: Beautifully Ugly!

 

[one-kuna]

Sigi, there is a typo in topic - says 1769 mm

[sigistenz]

Sigi, there is a typo in topic - says 1769 mm

Yes indeed, I'm sorry I don't know how to edit the title.

Sigi

Edit: found it now - thanks to bobh

[sigistenz]

Sigi, there is a typo in topic - says 1769 mm

 

I disagree..... coin is BU: Beautifully Ugly!

 

 

Hi Josh, good to hear from you again - and thank you for grading it BU. The coin is darker in hand, more even in color. My picture had to be brightened to make details visible. I don't like the raw planchet but it's a difficult coin.

Best, Sigi

[STEVE MOULDING]

As far as relative raritiy goes, I see:

 

1758MM 16%

1759MM 48%

1760MM 32%

1761MM 4%

 

in my dataset (about 160 coins)

[squirrel]

As far as relative raritiy goes, I see:

 

1758MM 16%

1759MM 48%

1760MM 32%

1761MM 4%

 

in my dataset (about 160 coins)

 

and compared to no mm?

[STEVE MOULDING]

MM only (160 coins)

1758MM 16%

1759MM 48%

1760MM 32%

1761MM 4%

 

 

No-mintmark only (525 Coins)

1758 18%

1759 19%

1760 27%

1761 27%

1762 9%

 

 

Within the same year

1758 (79%) - 1758MM (21%)

1759 (57%) - 1759MM (43%)

1760 (74%) - 1760MM (26%)

1761 (96%) - 1761MM (4%)

1762 (100%) - 1762MM (n/a)

[bobh]

Yes indeed, I'm sorry I don't know how to edit the title.

Sigi

 

Hi Sigi,

 

If you can edit the original post, you should also be able to edit the title by merely typing over what you want to change when the message comes up in edit mode. The link to edit a post is somewhat hidden, but if you hold the mouse pointer over the empty space to the left of the buttons marked "MultiQuote" and "Quote", the link "Edit" should magically appear (next to "Report").

 

After that, you need to click on "Use Full Editor" in order to edit the title.

 

I'll be thinking of you tomorrow in Munich, BTW, and the missed opportunity I had to meet you in person at the Bakken sale a couple of years ago!

(Three guesses as to which coin I am interested in there ... )

[sigistenz]

As far as relative raritiy goes, I see:

1758MM 16%

1759MM 48%

1760MM 32%

1761MM 4% in my dataset (about 160 coins)

 

That is very interesting! Thank you Steve for taking the time to establish the data. I appreciate it very much. I am astonished that the 1760MM is not as rare as I had expected.

I had expected the 1760 rarer than the 1758 - but you found that the 1760 is seen twice as much as the 1758!

Not to speak of Petrov or Ilyin who quoted the 1760MM much higher than the 1758MM, here's what recent catalogs say for VF in $$:

Bitkin 2003:

1758MM 15

1759MM 25 (which of course is wrong as the 1758MM is scarcer than the 1759MM)

1760MM 50

1761MM 70

 

Yusupov 2004

1758MM 30

1759MM 30 (but the 1758MM is scarcer than the 1759MM)

1760MM 40

1761MM 80

 

Konros 2012

1758MM 70

1759MM 40

1760MM 90

1761MM 175

 

Wolmar 2012

1758MM 45

1759MM 35

1760MM 45

1761MM 120

 

With the exception of Wolmar the others quote 1760MM higher than the 1758MM

Regards, Sigi

 

-

[sigistenz]

Hi Sigi,

 

If you can edit the original post, you should also be able to edit the title by merely typing over what you want to change when the message comes up in edit mode. The link to edit a post is somewhat hidden, but if you hold the mouse pointer over the empty space to the left of the buttons marked "MultiQuote" and "Quote", the link "Edit" should magically appear (next to "Report").

 

After that, you need to click on "Use Full Editor" in order to edit the title.

 

I'll be thinking of you tomorrow in Munich, BTW, and the missed opportunity I had to meet you in person at the Bakken sale a couple of years ago!

(Three guesses as to which coin I am interested in there ... )

Thank you, Bob, it worked! As to Munich, I wish you luck. What you are after will probably be a Nicholas II beauty. But as I don't know your collection it is difficult to guess - ah - did you win in lotto (for the 25 Rubles?).

Hope to meet you some day!

Regards, Sigi

 

-

[STEVE MOULDING]

Hi Sigi. It's been my experience for some time that the 58MM is rarer. I know somebody else who would confirm this

 

The guidebooks are, by and large, the same information from a hundred years ago just expressed differently. Few people actually do the work to check.

 

Best,

 

Steve

[bobh]

Thank you, Bob, it worked! As to Munich, I wish you luck. What you are after will probably be a Nicholas II beauty. But as I don't know your collection it is difficult to guess - ah - did you win in lotto (for the 25 Rubles?).

Hope to meet you some day!

Regards, Sigi

 

No, unfortunately no lotto winnings! But Nicholas II sounds good (hint: it's not a rouble, and not gold...and well worth traveling to Munich to view the coin and bid on it in person...)

 

Thanks for the good luck wish ... I think I shall need it!

[sigistenz]

Hi Sigi. It's been my experience for some time that the 58MM is rarer. I know somebody else who would confirm this

 

The guidebooks are, by and large, the same information from a hundred years ago just expressed differently. Few people actually do the work to check.

 

Best,

 

Steve

 

Thank you, Steve! An example is the Siberian 10kop1781KM always attributed RARE. In fact it is one of the most common dates.

BTW: I just took a look at m-dv.ru They recorded

1758MM 4x

1759MM 9x

1760MM 12x

1761MM 8x (!)

Isn't that funny?

Best, Sigi

[bobh]

Thank you, Bob, it worked! As to Munich, I wish you luck. What you are after will probably be a Nicholas II beauty. But as I don't know your collection it is difficult to guess - ah - did you win in lotto (for the 25 Rubles?).

Hope to meet you some day!

Regards, Sigi

No, unfortunately no lotto winnings! But Nicholas II sounds good (hint: it's not a rouble, and not gold...and well worth traveling to Munich to view the coin and bid on it in person...)

Thanks for the good luck wish ... I think I shall need it!

 

I was interested in lot 5138 - 50 kopecks 1906. It was advertised as XF/AU (German = "vorzüglich") with a "tiny rim ding" (German = "winziger Randfehler"). Knowing that if the description were correct, it would probably go for something between €4,000 - €5,000, but if it was NOT correct, that it would be a very costly mistake to bid that much, I went to look at it in person. Besides, if I had won the coin, I wasn't going to let them send it by mail, anyway. So I had to go. It was the only coin in the entire auction that I was really interested in.

 

The coin, when held in hand, showed absolutely no trace of luster in the fields. With my 10x jeweler's loupe, I could tell that under the patina and in the exposed areas of the field, there were many hairlines which revealed that it had been cleaned many years ago (IMHO). The rim knock was not what I would call "tiny". Definitely a problem coin, but because of the extreme rarity of the date, and the admittedly very nice details, I decided to go ahead and bid. However, I set a limit of €2,500.

 

As it turns out, the opening bid was already €2,200 and after I backed out, it went up to €3,800. I don't know if the winning bid came out of the room, perhaps from someone on the telephone, or from the internet live bidding.

 

There were two nice 5 kopeck copper coins I had seen which I also decided to bid on (lot 5048, 1792-KM and lot 5070, 1805-EM), but in both cases was overbid.

 

Anyway, I was spared the ordeal of dealing with Swiss import VAT regulations and getting the German/EU VAT reimbursed. It is not as easy now with Schengen ... nobody checks in the fast trains except for spot checking, and if you have ANYTHING to declare, you must register it in advance IN WRITING! (But how can you do this for auction winnings which you cannot possibly know in advance how much they cost? If I had won something, I would have to leave the goods in Munich, come back to Switzerland with the invoice, and make a second trip to pick up the coins! )The Zollhäuser (customs booths at the border) still stand, but they are almost always empty now, even at the ferry harbors in Friedrichshafen and Romanshorn on the Bodensee (Lake Constance). About the only place you can take goods such as auction winnings in person and declare them before entering the country the normal way is now at the airport in Zurich (presumably in Geneva, too). But it only cost me a little more than CHF 100 to take the train into Munich and back since I have a year-round rail pass for Switzerland due to my work. Flying is something like CHF 700 or even more. Otherwise, if they catch you crossing the border by train, you have no chance to voluntarily declare anything and are treated like a common criminal if you have goods in excess of CHF 300 (for Swiss residents ... probably less for visitors).

 

You can view the Russian lots here on Sixbid:

http://www.sixbid.co...&category=14607

 

Here is a link to another thread post of mine with a few more details and opinions about the auction: http://www.coinpeopl...post__p__585602

[sigistenz]

I was interested in lot 5138 - 50 kopecks 1906. It was advertised as XF/AU (German = "vorzüglich") with a "tiny rim ding" (German = "winziger Randfehler"). Knowing that if the description were correct, it would probably go for something between €4,000 - €5,000, but if it was NOT correct, that it would be a very costly mistake to bid that much, I went to look at it in person. Besides, if I had won the coin, I wasn't going to let them send it by mail, anyway. So I had to go. It was the only coin in the entire auction that I was really interested in.

 

The coin, when held in hand, showed absolutely no trace of luster in the fields. With my 10x jeweler's loupe, I could tell that under the patina and in the exposed areas of the field, there were many hairlines which revealed that it had been cleaned many years ago (IMHO). The rim knock was not what I would call "tiny". Definitely a problem coin, but because of the extreme rarity of the date, and the admittedly very nice details, I decided to go ahead and bid. However, I set a limit of €2,500.

 

As it turns out, the opening bid was already €2,200 and after I backed out, it went up to €3,800. I don't know if the winning bid came out of the room, perhaps from someone on the telephone, or from the internet live bidding.

 

There were two nice 5 kopeck copper coins I had seen which I also decided to bid on (lot 5048, 1792-KM and lot 5070, 1805-EM), but in both cases was overbid.

 

Anyway, I was spared the ordeal of dealing with Swiss import VAT regulations and getting the German/EU VAT reimbursed. It is not as easy now with Schengen ... nobody checks in the fast trains except for spot checking, and if you have ANYTHING to declare, you must register it in advance IN WRITING! (But how can you do this for auction winnings which you cannot possibly know in advance how much they cost? If I had won something, I would have to leave the goods in Munich, come back to Switzerland with the invoice, and make a second trip to pick up the coins! )The Zollhäuser (customs booths at the border) still stand, but they are almost always empty now, even at the ferry harbors in Friedrichshafen and Romanshorn on the Bodensee (Lake Constance). About the only place you can take goods such as auction winnings in person and declare them before entering the country the normal way is now at the airport in Zurich (presumably in Geneva, too). But it only cost me a little more than CHF 100 to take the train into Munich and back since I have a year-round rail pass for Switzerland due to my work. Flying is something like CHF 700 or even more. Otherwise, if they catch you crossing the border by train, you have no chance to voluntarily declare anything and are treated like a common criminal if you have goods in excess of CHF 300 (for Swiss residents ... probably less for visitors).

 

You can view the Russian lots here on Sixbid:

http://www.sixbid.co...&category=14607

 

Here is a link to another thread post of mine with a few more details and opinions about the auction: http://www.coinpeopl...post__p__585602

Hi Bob, I've made that experience often enough. Going to an auction and being disappointed by the coin in hand. But if you had not gone you would worry that someone got it so cheap!! After all it is better to pay some 100+CHF for the experience, than paying much more for an insatisfactory coin.

As to Europe (the Schengen countries) - it is good to live inside. I live in Belgium. When I take my bicycle for the 25km to the German town of Aachen (=Aix la Chapelle), I cross the Dutch border and pass through the Dutch town of Vaals, then the German border for Aachen. The borders have become symbolic, no customs, no border guards, nobody cares what's in your pocket or baggage. And the money is the same everywhere. I think that is a real progress. Switzerland is welcome to join the Schengen countries, but the Swiss people won't.

Best, Sigi

[Steve D'Ippolito]

 

As to Europe (the Schengen countries) - it is good to live inside. I live in Belgium. When I take my bicycle for the 25km to the German town of Aachen (=Aix la Chapelle), I cross the Dutch border and pass through the Dutch town of Vaals, then the German border for Aachen. The borders have become symbolic, no customs, no border guards, nobody cares what's in your pocket or baggage. And the money is the same everywhere.

 

In 1991 I rode a bicycle from Brunssum (NL) to a town in Germany that I don't even recall the name of (found it on Google maps: Hillensberg), primarily because I could. There was a customs booth basically in the middle of a field (this was very much a back road), and all that happened was the man inside nodded at me when I slowed down and glanced through the window to see if anyone was actually there. (And looking at it from street view this simply doesn't match my recollection of the trip so I may be confusing two different trips or something.)

 

Anyhow I note this thread is about a 1760 piatak, not a Nicholas II minor coin or European travel... so I guess I've just participated in the hijacking of an already hijacked thread.

[bobh]

In 1991 I rode a bicycle from Brunssum (NL) to a town in Germany that I don't even recall the name of (found it on Google maps: Hillensberg), primarily because I could. There was a customs booth basically in the middle of a field (this was very much a back road), and all that happened was the man inside nodded at me when I slowed down and glanced through the window to see if anyone was actually there. (And looking at it from street view this simply doesn't match my recollection of the trip so I may be confusing two different trips or something.)

 

Anyhow I note this thread is about a 1760 piatak, not a Nicholas II minor coin or European travel... so I guess I've just participated in the hijacking of an already hijacked thread.

 

In 1991, things were VERY different! The Swiss are technically part of the Schengen group of countries; they don't check your passport at the border anywhere except at the airport. But they still want to collect the VAT because they decided to go their own way for that. With Schengen, the Swiss have access to the criminal data in the EU database (Interpol, etc.) But they want to have their cake and eat it, too, as far as the VAT is concerned. The big question is, how long this will continue?

 

And don't worry about hijacking the thread -- it's my fault, because Sigi went to the G&M auction 183 in Munich (the Tom W. Bakken sale), and I almost went there myself, so we could have met in person. Unfortunately, I decided that it was wiser to invest the money I would have had to pay for the trip instead into bidding on a coin.