1811 2K overstruck mintmark

[squirrel]

Its a rainy sunday, here, and i have a little free time. Ive been meaning to put this one up on omnicoin.

The minmark of IM (Izhorsk) is clearly punched over a CPM (St Petersburg) mintmark. I Its not listed in the Brekke supplement. Has anyone else seen this before?

[BKB]

Its a rainy sunday, here, and i have a little free time. Ive been meaning to put this one up on omnicoin.

The minmark of IM (Izhorsk) is clearly punched over a CPM (St Petersburg) mintmark. I Its not listed in the Brekke supplement. Has anyone else seen this before?

 

I think I have all of those (or, at least, majority of variations) for 1810, 1811, and 1812. It is over SPB, and some are listed in Brekke 1977 book. Some are not. There are both 1 and 2 kop. coins with re-punched mintmark, and it is always IM over SPB. I will post photos, if you want, as soon as I get to the bank. I guess SPB mint was helping Izhora Mint by sending their finished dies over. However, I always wondered why would unhardened dies be laying around? Or, can you re-punch a mintmark in already hardened dies?!

[STEVE MOULDING]

I think I have all of those (or, at least, majority of variations) for 1810, 1811, and 1812. It is over SPB, and some are listed in Brekke 1977 book. Some are not. There are both 1 and 2 kop. coins with re-punched mintmark, and it is always IM over SPB. I will post photos, if you want, as soon as I get to the bank. I guess SPB mint was helping Izhora Mint by sending their finished dies over. However, I always wondered why would unhardened dies be laying around? Or, can you re-punch a mintmark in already hardened dies?!

 

Yes, I have a nice example. 1811 I believe, but I should double check.

 

I also looked through my images database. The 1811 IM-over-CP crops up fairly often.

[squirrel]

Thanks, BKB.

 

Brekke '77 #263 is listed as IM/CPB, mintmaster MK. My coin is mintmaster PC, so it would Brekke 264, but no mention of overstruck mintmark for PC.

 

The Brekke supplement of 1997 has a list of overstruck mintmarks, but omits #263 (an oversight i assume). The only 2K listed is the 1810 IM/CPM, brekke 245 (MK)

Im guessing the mixing and matching of die combos means this coin was bound to turn up, as you say, with CPM sending spare or modified dies to IM.

[squirrel]

Yes, I have a nice example. 1811 I believe, but I should double check.

 

I also looked through my images database. The 1811 IM-over-CP crops up fairly often.

 

Thanks Steve. Did you happen to notice if the IM/CPM are PC or MK?

[STEVE MOULDING]

Thanks Steve. Did you happen to notice if the IM/CPM are PC or MK?

You're welcome

 

I see it on both PC and MK.

[sigistenz]

Hi Josh, what I understand from your posting is that Brekke does list the ИМ/СПБ in combination with the MK mintmaster initials but not combined with the ПС mintmaster initials. I asked the same question a while ago to Mr. Bakken (of the Brekke/Bakken supplement, hoping to sell him mine as a new discovery).

But he said that he had it himself and that it was not that rare. Sorry Sigi

[squirrel]

Thanks everyone. A question well answered! good info!

[alexbq2]

Are all 1810 IM MK 2 kopeeks made from re-engraved St. Petersburg dies?

[alexbq2]

I was looking for images of 1810 2 kopeeks IM MK, and saw something odd. Does anyone recall or has any information on MIM auction #26 Lot #48? A fairly shabby looking piece sold for $1700!? And that's in 2004!

 

http://www.numismat.ru/au.shtml?au=26&...m=10&page=5

 

What was so special about that coin?

[RW Julian]

I was looking for images of 1810 2 kopeeks IM MK, and saw something odd. Does anyone recall or has any information on MIM auction #26 Lot #48? A fairly shabby looking piece sold for $1700!? And that's in 2004!

http://www.numismat.ru/au.shtml?au=26&...m=10&page=5

What was so special about that coin?

I downloaded the images for all the copper coins in this sale at the time (2004) and can send

a jpeg of this coin if you are interested. I see nothing special but it is sometimes the case that

a coin thought to be common turns out not to be.

 

RWJ

[STEVE MOULDING]

I was looking for images of 1810 2 kopeeks IM MK, and saw something odd. Does anyone recall or has any information on MIM auction #26 Lot #48? A fairly shabby looking piece sold for $1700!? And that's in 2004!

 

http://www.numismat.ru/au.shtml?au=26&...m=10&page=5

 

What was so special about that coin?

 

Lot 48 was Bitkin #347...the 1810 EM R3

I have the image. That's why it was $1700.

 

Best

 

Steve

[RW Julian]

Lot 48 was Bitkin #347...the 1810 EM R3

I have the image. That's why it was $1700.

Best

Steve

I am confused at this point. Does auction 26 at Monety i Medali have the photos and

descriptions backwards? When I pulled up my jpegs from this sale the numbers did not

match so I assumed that by accident I had put the wrong numbers on the jpegs.

 

Lot 48 in their on-line copy of this catalogue is an IM coin.

 

RWJ

[STEVE MOULDING]

I am confused at this point. Does auction 26 at Monety i Medali have the photos and

descriptions backwards? When I pulled up my jpegs from this sale the numbers did not

match so I assumed that by accident I had put the wrong numbers on the jpegs.

 

Lot 48 in their on-line copy of this catalogue is an IM coin.

 

RWJ

Yes, their website is decidedly messed up, pictures and descriptions.

Lot 48 was really an 1810EM. However, the pictures they now show online for lot 48 are actually those of lot 49, an 1810IM.

For lot 49, they now show yet another coin online; I don't know yet what that one is. The real lot 48 images and description are shown online under lot 53.

 

Steve

[alexbq2]

Yes, their website is decidedly messed up, pictures and descriptions.

Lot 48 was really an 1810EM. However, the pictures they now show online for lot 48 are actually those of lot 49, an 1810IM.

For lot 49, they now show yet another coin online; I don't know yet what that one is. The real lot 48 images and description are shown online under lot 53.

 

Steve

 

That makes more sense. I was very puzzled when I saw Lot #53 along with the estimate and price realized. I am guessing that prices realized are listed under original lot numbers, while images and descriptions got moved around somehow.

[one-kuna]

That makes more sense. I was very puzzled when I saw Lot #53 along with the estimate and price realized. I am guessing that prices realized are listed under original lot numbers, while images and descriptions got moved around somehow.

 

similar mistake adacoins had in its catalog 11 with copper sale lot 593 2 kopeks i m m k 1810 Bitkin R1 from Sothebys auction; this coin was from Hoilander also described incorrect; adacoins promissed me to fix it after i send them a message but left it as it is and some others lots be confused as to its descriptions

[RW Julian]

Yes, their website is decidedly messed up, pictures and descriptions.

Lot 48 was really an 1810EM. However, the pictures they now show online for lot 48 are actually those of lot 49, an 1810IM.

For lot 49, they now show yet another coin online; I don't know yet what that one is. The real lot 48 images and description are shown online under lot 53.

Steve

I have found my original downloads of the auction descriptions. It appears that the photo shown

for lot 49 is that of lot 54.

 

RWJ

[one-kuna]

Are all 1810 IM MK 2 kopeeks made from re-engraved St. Petersburg dies?

 

Since there is no straight answer - let me put some background - first in Russian then in English:

 

Колпинский (Ижорский) монетный двор на базе Адмиралтейских Ижорских заводов в селе Колпино

Kolpino (Izhora) mint based on Admiralty plants in village Kolpino

 

КМ - колпинская монета на 2-копеечнике 1810г. со знаком минцмейстера МК

KM - kolpino coin on 2 kopeks of 1810 with MK mintmaster

 

ИМ - ижорская монета

ИМ - Izhora coin

 

СПБ - Санкт-Петербургский монетный двор

СПБ - Saint Petersburg mint

 

Знаки минцмейстеров, работавших в Петербурге:

МК - Михаил Клейнер (1808-1811)

Павел Ступицын (1810-1825)

Marks of mintmasters working in Petersburg

MK - Mikhail Kleiner (1808-1811)

Pavel Stupitsin (1810-1825)

 

Знаки минцмейстеров, работавших в Колпине:

МК - Михаил Клейнер (1810-1811)

Павел Ступицын (1811-1814)

Marks of mintmasters working in Kolpino

MK - Mikhail Kleiner (1810-1814)

Pavel Stupitsin (1811-1814)

 

According above data and as earlier in this post BKB was mentioned, the Kolpino (Izhora) mint helped Petersburg's mint with coin production and that is why we can see ИМ (IM) over СПБ. If take this theory as a base, then ИМ (IM) with no over СПБ is very rare coin if ever found. It means that ИМ (IM) MK could have been produced at Kolpino. So far as Uzdenikov book says only KM MK is a direct production of Kolpino (Izhora) mint (1810). Recent Gorny auction had one and luckly I was a winner of it. Hope all the above can help

[alexbq2]

Here’s an interesting article that I babelfished.

 

Ижорский чекан. Колпинский (Ижорский) монетный двор работал на базе Адмиралтейских Ижорских заводов в с. Колпино (ныне г. Колпино). Фактически, этот монетный двор был филиалом Петербургского двора: штемпеля присылали из Петербурга, минцмейстером был тот же Михаил Клейнер (МК). Первые 20 двухкопеечников были изготовлены в Колпино только 14 декабря 1810 года, к 23 декабря сделали уже 65 тысяч монет.

 

Сначала двухкопеечники делали с аббревиатурой КМ (колпинская монета), но уже через неделю изменили ее на ИМ (ижорская монета). Дело в том, что КМ как сокращение "колыванская монета" традиционно проставляли на монетах Сузунского двора. В результате сейчас двухкопеечники 1810 КМ-МК наряду с 1810 СПБ-ПС – одни из самых редких двушек 1810-1830 годов массового выпуска.

 

Так как не всегда на Петербургском дворе успевали сделать специальные штемпеля ИМ-МК, встречаются двухкопеечники, отчеканенные штемпелями с перебитым обозначением монетного двора ИМ из СПБ.

 

Kolpino ([izhorskiy]) mint worked on the base of the admiralty’s [izhorskie] plants in village of Kolpino (now city Kolpino). Actually, this mint was the branch of the Petersburg’s mint: dies were sent from Petersburg, mintmaster was the same Mikhail Kleyner (MK). The first 20 two kopeeks were prepared in Kolpino only on December 14, 1810, by December 23 they already made 65 thousand coins. First two kopeeks were made with the abbreviation KM (Kolpino coin), but only one week later they changed it IM (izhorskaya coin). The fact is that KM is short for " Kolyvan' [moneta]" traditionally appears on the coins of Suzunskogo Mint. As a result now 2 kopeek 1810 KM- MK together with 1810 SPB - PS are some of rarest 2 kopeeks of 1810-1830 mass production. Since on the Petersburg mint, they did not always manage to make special dies with IM - MK, 2 kopeek coins made with the re-engraved designation of the mint mark IM from SPB are encountered.

[one-kuna]

Here’s an interesting article that I babelfished.

 

Ижорский чекан. Колпинский (Ижорский) монетный двор работал на базе Адмиралтейских Ижорских заводов в с. Колпино (ныне г. Колпино). Фактически, этот монетный двор был филиалом Петербургского двора: штемпеля присылали из Петербурга, минцмейстером был тот же Михаил Клейнер (МК). Первые 20 двухкопеечников были изготовлены в Колпино только 14 декабря 1810 года, к 23 декабря сделали уже 65 тысяч монет.

 

Сначала двухкопеечники делали с аббревиатурой КМ (колпинская монета), но уже через неделю изменили ее на ИМ (ижорская монета). Дело в том, что КМ как сокращение "колыванская монета" традиционно проставляли на монетах Сузунского двора. В результате сейчас двухкопеечники 1810 КМ-МК наряду с 1810 СПБ-ПС – одни из самых редких двушек 1810-1830 годов массового выпуска.

 

Так как не всегда на Петербургском дворе успевали сделать специальные штемпеля ИМ-МК, встречаются двухкопеечники, отчеканенные штемпелями с перебитым обозначением монетного двора ИМ из СПБ.

 

Kolpino ([izhorskiy]) mint worked on the base of the admiralty’s [izhorskie] plants in village of Kolpino (now city Kolpino). Actually, this mint was the branch of the Petersburg’s mint: dies were sent from Petersburg, mintmaster was the same Mikhail Kleyner (MK). The first 20 two kopeeks were prepared in Kolpino only on December 14, 1810, by December 23 they already made 65 thousand coins. First two kopeeks were made with the abbreviation KM (Kolpino coin), but only one week later they changed it IM (izhorskaya coin). The fact is that KM is short for " Kolyvan' [moneta]" traditionally appears on the coins of Suzunskogo Mint. As a result now 2 kopeek 1810 KM- MK together with 1810 SPB - PS are some of rarest 2 kopeeks of 1810-1830 mass production. Since on the Petersburg mint, they did not always manage to make special dies with IM - MK, 2 kopeek coins made with the re-engraved designation of the mint mark IM from SPB are encountered.

 

thank you for placing this info; this kind of materials reminds me some similar I found for a fate of the collection of Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich - few russian websites by now including local newspapers being reviewed the New York coin convention from words of one attendant (russian dealer) and one of its paragraph says that the convention had few auctions, and one of auction offered some medals from collection of Grand Duke and as you know he had big collection which he donated to Hermitage Funny? I tried to clarified those authors where collection is but was kicked off from dialog.

What I am trying to say is that at this time so many folks in russsia wants to publish something for profit and they re-phraze or altered some credible info transmitting it to new, unreal, unheard, but likeble by russian readers; what you found it is from same category

[alexbq2]

thank you for placing this info; this kind of materials reminds me some similar I found for a fate of the collection of Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich - few russian websites by now including local newspapers being reviewed the New York coin convention from words of one attendant (russian dealer) and one of its paragraph says that the convention had few auctions, and one of auction offered some medals from collection of Grand Duke and as you know he had big collection which he donated to Hermitage Funny? I tried to clarified those authors where collection is but was kicked off from dialog.

What I am trying to say is that at this time so many folks in russsia wants to publish something for profit and they re-phraze or altered some credible info transmitting it to new, unreal, unheard, but likeble by russian readers; what you found it is from same category

 

Just curious. What information presented in the above article do you find questionable or doubtful?

[one-kuna]

Just curious. What information presented in the above article do you find questionable or doubtful?

if you asking about Grand Duke collection? - he never gave/donated/presented his collection to the State Hermitage, in 1914 his collection was packed and placed to safe deposit, later, going though many adventure his collection of coins and medals appered in Smithsonian museum here in Washington.

[squirrel]

Several years ago, i was fortunate to have been in Washington DC, and toured the Smithsonian at a time when a selection from Grand Dukes / Dupont collection was on display. I dont know if it is permanently on display or not.

 

It was very nice.

[one-kuna]

Several years ago, i was fortunate to have been in Washington DC, and toured the Smithsonian at a time when a selection from Grand Dukes / Dupont collection was on display. I dont know if it is permanently on display or not.

 

It was very nice.

as I heard it is not by now; I saw some pieces back to about 1993 or 1994 in New York show when Elvira Clain-Stefanelli brought them for little exibition, I remember some Sibirian pieces, I had some mine with me and I showed to Elvira saying that they are same grade as Dukes ones, she was smiling and said that these are the Grand Dukes and have special value as well as his collection in a museum...

[squirrel]

as I heard it is not by now; I saw some pieces back to about 1993 or 1994 in New York show when Elvira Clain-Stefanelli brought them for little exibition, I remember some Sibirian pieces, I had some mine with me and I showed to Elvira saying that they are same grade as Dukes ones, she was smiling and said that these are the Grand Dukes and have special value as well as his collection in a museum...

 

This was around 2004, i think. Part of an exhibit of world coinage.

 

I doubt you have anything better, let alone even close, to the coins i saw on the velvet trays, behind the bullet proof glass, at the Smithsonian. Most were unique, extremely high grade. and just plain amazing. The Peter I material is most memorable. As was the array of Proof 12 ruble Plats....