Fake gold 10 rouble 1899 gold

[bobh]

Here is an article I came across while reading some other counterfeited coins:

http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/newsletter5.html

Did you see the link to the RCC newsgroup mentioning my name? That is the same coin being discussed as at the very beginning of this thread.

[Tane]

World is getting smaller and smaller

[bobh]

Fraud it is. I think that the easiest option is that you contact the Swiss police since you live in there. Handling this may get difficult for someone outside Switzerland.

I've been thinking about this problem in general. WE know that the coin is fake, but it has likely never had any kind of expertise. There might be problems here because this particular seller is one of the largest of all in Switzerland, and I have heard that the seller is well connected (family connections) with the kind of people who would offer expertises, etc. I refuse to deal with them myself because of a different issue I once had with them which I would rather not discuss publicly.

 

Any lawyers reading this, please feel free to jump in here!

[bobh]

THEY CANCELLED THE AUCTION!!!

 

Sometimes it does pay off to contact the seller directly. But I wouldn't be surprised if they try it again sometime. I'll be watching, though.

[bobh]

They listed another now, only this time without specifying the weight:

10 roubles 1899 -- fake???

The images are different, though. Perhaps it is a different coin? Here is the link to the first auction which was ended early: Fake 1899 gold 10 rouble coin (8.4g)

[Tane]

The one above might well be genuine, it clearly is not the same coin. Nickys portrait is differend. Colour and overall appearance looks far better than with the fake one.

[WCO]

Good day everyone.

 

I would like to contribute some pictures. First is well known fake of 1895 10 Rubles. Usually this kind was found in bags of Nicholas II bullion 10 Rubles. It's made of gold, but edge is crude and hand made, easy to recognize.

 

 

Obverse:

[WCO]

Reverse:

[WCO]

Here are pictures of fake 1899 10 Rubles mentioned in Australian journal. Crude and immediately visible. I can't believe someone actually fallen for this kind, but apparently it happened.

 

Reverse:

[WCO]

1899-AR 10 Rubles (posted at the beginning of the branch) in Catalogue of Russian Coins by Y. Adrianov is mentioned as counterfeit (as all similar coins with wrong mintmaster initials).

 

Also it is well known that in 1920's 10 Rubles of Nicholas II were made in millions. Dated 1899 and 1911, may be some other dates too.

 

 

-----

 

Obverse of 1899 counterfeit (gold plated):

[bobh]

1899-AR 10 Rubles (posted at the beginning of the branch) in Catalogue of Russian Coins by Y. Adrianov is mentioned as counterfeit (as all similar coins with wrong mintmaster initials).

 

Also it is well known that in 1920's 10 Rubles of Nicholas II were made in millions. Dated 1899 and 1911, may be some other dates too.

Thanks for the information, WCO, and welcome to the forum!

Does Adriano say where and when the 1899-AR coins were struck? Also, does he say what the base metal under the gold plating is (copper, lead, etc.)? The weight is very close (8.4g as opposed to 8.6g) which might fool some people into thinking it is lightweight, but within tolerance (which it isn't, of course).

 

The information about the later-year 10 rouble gold coins being minted well into the '20s is also interesting ... what is your source of information for this? I suspect the same is true of the 1909 5 rouble coins which are actually fairly common.

[WCO]

Thanks for the information, WCO, and welcome to the forum!

Does Adriano say where and when the 1899-AR coins were struck? Also, does he say what the base metal under the gold plating is (copper, lead, etc.)? The weight is very close (8.4g as opposed to 8.6g) which might fool some people into thinking it is lightweight, but within tolerance (which it isn't, of course).

 

The information about the later-year 10 rouble gold coins being minted well into the '20s is also interesting ... what is your source of information for this? I suspect the same is true of the 1909 5 rouble coins which are actually fairly common.

 

Thank you for warm welcome.

 

Adrianov does not mention where this kind comes from. On page 277 of his catalogue he wrote exactly (I am translating from Russian): "Often found 10 Rubles of this (Nicholas II) type dated 1895 and 1896, and also all others with wrong mintmaster initials most likely are fakes, but often weight and gold content are the same as for the authentic coins".

 

I want to point out that he is saying "most likely" are fakes and not for sure.

 

About weight of 1899-AR coin. It should be 8.60 gram. Using as example that for 5 Ruble gold coins of mid XIX century normal was remedium of 0.04 gram we can say, that for 10 Ruble coins it was plus or minus 0.04-0.07 gram (just do not have time to find more exact tables for coins of this particular kind). Also your scales depending on its type and cost may have precision of anywhere between 0.001 to 0.2 gram. Scales also should be set to zero promptly, put on horizontal table, etc. and it is not always done. Also authentic coins with lower (and higher too) weight are known, no matter what rules and regulations were at that time.

 

What I am trying to say is 8.4 gram coin can easily fool anyone, too close to the weight of the real coin. Metal and gold content are the same, not possible to distinguish. I believe only looking at the edge possible to say something about authenticity.

 

----

 

The fact that large number (millions) of Nicholas II gold coins were made by Bolsheviks after 1917 is well known. Bitkin in his catalogue mentioned it too. For example 1911 10 Rubles should be scarce considering their original small mintage figures, but they are not. Very common. While there will be never any documents found due to understandable reasons, it's a well known fact.

 

----

 

1909 5 Rubles were very scarce, before quantities came from Norwegian hoard. It is still scarce coin in Russia since they were all initially available in the U.S.

[bobh]

Thank you for warm welcome.

Не за что, WCO!

Adrianov does not mention where this kind comes from. On page 277 of his catalogue he wrote exactly (I am translating from Russian): "Often found 10 Rubles of this (Nicholas II) type dated 1895 and 1896, and also all others with wrong mintmaster initials most likely are fakes, but often weight and gold content are the same as for the authentic coins".

 

I want to point out that he is saying "most likely" are fakes and not for sure.

OK. I can understand why someone would fake a rare coin such as 1895 or 1896 10 rouble gold coins using gold, but why 1899? This coin is seldom worth more than its metal value unless it is in BU or proof condition.

About weight of 1899-AR coin. It should be 8.60 gram. Using as example that for 5 Ruble gold coins of mid XIX century normal was remedium of 0.04 gram we can say, that for 10 Ruble coins it was plus or minus 0.04-0.07 gram (just do not have time to find more exact tables for coins of this particular kind). [...some text snipped here...] Also, authentic coins with lower (and higher too) weight are known, no matter what rules and regulations were at that time.

Well, we have two coins here of this type ... the one I posted at the top of this thread, and the one Tane bought from a Swiss dealer. His was not the same coin, as can easily be ascertained by comparing his images with mine. Yet both have the same weight, exactly 8.4g (my scales are only accurate to 0.1g, but I always have fresh batteries, put it on level surface, etc.) I still think anyone is crazy to fake an 1899 10 rouble gold coin using gold when the only profit on selling the coin is 0.2g of gold. I would assume that this coin is probably gold-plated. Unfortunately (??? ), I sent mine back to the dealer for a refund.

What I am trying to say is 8.4 gram coin can easily fool anyone, too close to the  weight of the real coin. Metal and gold content are the same, not possible to distinguish. I believe only looking at the edge possible to say something about authenticity.

I disagree as to the metal content as far as the 1899 year gold coins go, but I have no means of proving this.

The fact that large number (millions) of Nicholas II gold coins were made by Bolsheviks after 1917 is well known. Bitkin in his catalogue mentioned it too. For example 1911 10 Rubles should be scarce considering their original small mintage figures, but they are not. Very common. While there will be never any documents found due to understandable reasons, it's a well known fact.

 

----

 

1909 5 Rubles were very scarce, before quantities came from Norwegian hoard. It is still scarce coin in Russia since they were all initially available in the U.S.

Thanks for this valuable information!

[WCO]

...I still think anyone is crazy to fake an 1899 10 rouble gold coin using gold when the only profit on selling the coin is 0.2g of gold...

 

According to Russian "tales" gold (stolen from Russian mines and gold reach territories) in a form of gold sand and small ingots was melted down to make most common coins such as 1899 10 Rubles. That was the only way for criminals to profit from unlawfully mined (stolen) gold by making coins out of it and enter them into circulation. Most common dates were faked that would not attract much attention. The profit of a criminal was the face value of a coin. They (counterfeiters) tried hard to make fake coins looking real, with prompt weight and gold content. If you think about it from this angle, may be faking a common coin does not look this unreasonable.

[bobh]

According to Russian "tales" gold (stolen from Russian mines and gold reach territories) in a form of gold sand and small ingots was melted down to make most common coins such as 1899 10 Rubles. That was the only way for criminals to profit from unlawfully mined (stolen) gold by making coins out of it and enter  them into circulation. Most common dates were faked that would not attract much  attention. The profit of a criminal was the face value of a coin. They (counterfeiters) tried hard to make fake coins looking real, with prompt weight and gold content. If you think about it from this angle, may be faking a common coin does not look this unreasonable.

It is an interesting theory. However:

 

1. Setting up dies of the quality we have seen is not a trivial undertaking. I doubt that ordinary criminals would be that well organized and/or talented;

 

2. The fake 1899-AR coins seem to be of later-date manufacture when controls at the mines would be presumably tighter (but maybe the opposite is true?) The one I had was uncirculated, or AU at least. If the coins were of older manufacture, and your theory true, then they would have immediately entered into circulation and become worn. However, gold coins of this period didn't circulate after the revolution (or not for long thereafter). Of course, it is also possible that some of these coins were intended for circulation but didn't circulate because of the revolution and then became hoarded by refugees, etc. like most of the other gold coinage in private hands;

 

3. It is unusual that two entirely different coins would weigh exactly 8.4g and not 8.6, 8.5 or maybe 8.3g. This would indicate a rather consistent manufacturing process. The fake coins also have the same dimensions as the real ones indicating a somewhat different metal content. Of course, two coins alone are far from being a representative statistical population.

[gxseries]

Actually, I wouldn't too disagree with WCO's theory.

 

There were some interesting stories of the Soviet mines, particually with a story that I heard which goes somewhat like this: (now pardon my awful English as well as if the story is totally incorrect, but this is how I remember it)

 

"Here on offer is a platinum planchet with the Soviet crest which I found from a Swiss coin dealer. I found it unsual as it is not listed in any catalogues. The dealer told me that this is an unusual piece as this planchet is a piece from rural parts of Russia. While it is supposely illegal for them to obtain any form of precious metals, it was said to be easier to trade in terms of such "bullion coins""

 

After reading this, I am wondering if there are some sort of conspiracies with some mines. It CAN be possible that such event occurs! Remember during the Tsarist era, while miners mined electrum, they were often paid back in terms of silver bullions called affinage ingots, which you can look at pg 656 in Uzedenikov.

 

I personally do think that an underground mine does have the technology to accurate measure such mass, specially if they had to pay the workers in ingots. Striking such high detail coins is another trivial matter.

[WCO]

Actually, I wouldn't too disagree with WCO's theory.

 

There were some interesting stories of the Soviet mines, particually with a story that I heard which goes somewhat like this: (now pardon my awful English as well as if the story is totally incorrect, but this is how I remember it)

 

"Here on offer is a platinum planchet with the Soviet crest which I found from a Swiss coin dealer. I found it unsual as it is not listed in any catalogues. The dealer told me that this is an unusual piece as this planchet is a piece from rural parts of Russia. While it is supposely illegal for them to obtain any form of precious metals, it was said to be easier to trade in terms of such "bullion coins""

 

After reading this, I am wondering if there are some sort of conspiracies with some mines. It CAN be possible that such event occurs! Remember during the Tsarist era, while miners mined electrum, they were often paid back in terms of silver bullions called affinage ingots, which you can look at pg 656 in Uzedenikov. 

 

I personally do think that an underground mine does have the technology to accurate measure such mass, specially if they had to pay the workers in ingots. Striking such high detail coins is another trivial matter.

 

 

Just about 3 weeks ago on Russian TV saw "Honest Detective" series the one about stealing precious metals from government gold processing factories, illegal mining, all sorts of crimes related to this. With some history, but mostly about modern times. This "business" was very "popular" in Russia 200, 100, 50 years ago and now is more popular than ever. After Soviet Union fallen apart in early 1990's many processing factories and mines were shut. Workers fired. Considering that it was the only job in their small village somewhere in Siberia or Far East most of the man started digging gold without licenses or proper permissions, i.e. stealing. The only way not to die from hunger to them and their families. Our days there are criminal chains that would buy this kind of gold sand from "workers" then melt it and make jewelry or sell farter. It is a well organized crime with manufacturing involved, good modern machinery, etc. Thousands of people got sentenced for those crimes and now under the bars. Stealing from government processing factories was even better organized, entire factory personnel was in criminal chain, everything was under control...

 

Now a days it is possible to make jewelry out of gold sell in privately owned jewelry stores, but not that long ago all jewelry stores were government and under constant surveillance. Was not possible to sell anything illegal there. One of the common ways to profit from stolen gold was to make gold coins.

 

 

All I can say, it's Russia!

 

 

Who in Russia would even think to BUY a coin, take 0.2 grams of gold out of it and sell again? Not a Russian thinking. Example of criminal thinking is like this: what our gang can do with 50 kilos of stolen gold sand and ingots?

 

May be their manufacturing process was a bit off (and this is good for us since gives us an ability to recognize a fake), by 0.2 grams and crude edge which is the most difficult to fake, but obviously someone, somehow, somewhere achieved that quality and it was not at a Russian mint.

[WCO]

Dear Bobh,

 

Thank you very much for starting topic which turned out to be this much interesting! Really one of the best I read for a long time!

 

WCO

[bobh]

Our days there are criminal chains that would buy this kind of gold sand from "workers" then melt it and make jewelry or sell farther. It is a well organized crime with manufacturing involved, good modern machinery, etc.  Thousands of people got sentenced for those crimes and now under the bars. Stealing from government processing factories was even better organized, entire factory personnel was in criminal chain, everything was under control...

I must say, you are very convincing, WCO! And when realizing that mining is a VERY big business in Russia, it makes sense that there would also be a large criminal element involved. After all, if they can steal plutonium from Russian reactors, why not gold?

 

When I see a fake that is as good as the 1899-AR coin, I think they probably put the wrong mintmaster there on purpose. I think sometimes the best forgers leave some kind of mark as a sort of perverse pride ... after all, if the counterfeit is too perfect, how can they claim later on that it was their own work?

 

I am glad you enjoyed reading this thread ... it had gotten very quiet until you came along, though! Thanks for your input.

[Tane]

Oh man, another one:

10 Roubles 1899

[bobh]

Oh man, another one:

10 Roubles 1899

I don't see anything in this auction which would indicate that it is a fake ... the weight given is correct. Of course, there is no mintmaster given, and sometimes a seller doesn't weigh the coin himself but merely quotes the weight from a catalog. I've seen this happen many times with 5 rouble gold coins from after 1897, and the seller copies the wrong weight given by Krause-Mishler.

 

Did I miss something here?

[Tane]

I think that the portrait and the eagle don't look right at all (or atleast in my eyes )

[bobh]

Here's another one:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=250081963338

 

I've sent the seller a notice. He or she is offering quite a few 10 rouble gold coins; many look suspicious, especially the edge lettering (although the other mintmasters are correct). Also, many of the coins are quite discolored which is highly unusual for this kind of gold coin.

 

What do you think?

[RW Julian]

Here's another one:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=250081963338

 

I've sent the seller a notice. He or she is offering quite a few 10 rouble gold coins; many look suspicious, especially the edge lettering (although the other mintmasters are correct). Also, many of the coins are quite discolored which is highly unusual for this kind of gold coin.

 

What do you think?

I sent the seller a note indicating that I thought the 10 ruble pieces were counterfeits.

 

RWJ

[bobh]

I sent the seller a note indicating that I thought the 10 ruble pieces were counterfeits.

 

RWJ

Interesting ... in the meantime, I received a very curt reply from the seller, a one-liner saying "thank you very much" and nothing else.

 

The auction in the above link has been ended by the seller. All of the other 10 rouble auctions were to end about 1 week from today. Now they will all end in about 1 hour! Most interesting of all, before I sent the notice, all of the auctions had pictures of the edge showing the mintmaster initials. Now they either have no edge pictures or else show only the word "ЗОЛОТНИКЪ", i.e. mintmaster is no longer visible. Additionally, the original auction descriptions included the weight of the coin as "8.60 grams" ... now the weight is gone!

 

This is one seller I would never buy ANYTHING from in the future, in spite of the 100% feedback.