Tane Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Here are the pictures: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 For an apparently high grade (judging by the fields) coin, it doesn't seem to have much detail in the design. Gold is soft and usually strikes up well, so that seems unusual to me. On the other hand, I haven't concentrated on the Nicholas II gold coins and so might not have much of an eye for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted June 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Tane, I too feel your pain! Where on Earth did you run across this one? We really should keep records, you know ... It would be interesting for me, and perhaps for others, if you could also post pictures of the edge lettering. If this coin is a companion to the one I originally posted, the lettering should be quite crude when compared to the genuine article. As to the pictures you have provided, I seem to recognize the lettering on the reverse once again as having a somewhat more rounded-edge, softer blurred appearance than the letters on a genuine coin. After the experiences I have had with 1899 (I also had one presumably genuine coin stolen in the mails), I have decided not to buy ANY gold coins sight unseen ever again unless they have been slabbed. I have little pocket-sized scales which are accurate to 0.1g and run on three AA batteries -- cost me maybe US-$40 or less. I always bring these with me when attending coin shows. 0.1 gram is accurate enough for coins like this to catch forgeries. Uzdenikov lists the tolerance for 10 rouble gold coins at something like 0.05g (+/-), and they were usually weighed individually (probably spot-checked, though). Silver and copper coins, OTOH, were usually weighed in batches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tane Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Thanks for your sympathies, guys. I contacted the seller (she's from Switzerland), and she promised to send my money back if I return the coin. I'll try to get a decent picture of the edge before sending it back. I guess I have to get that scale too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted June 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I contacted the seller (she's from Switzerland)... So sorry that my adopted country did this to you! It would be quite ironic if it turns out that this is the same coin I originally posted, wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tane Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 So sorry that my adopted country did this to you! It would be quite ironic if it turns out that this is the same coin I originally posted, wouldn't it? It's not your, or even the countrys fault I like Switzerland, I hope to get there one day. It is not the same coin, the eagle on my coin is even more flat than on the one on your picture. But I think they may have same origins (I've heard rumors about Lebanese fakes?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jf7fsu Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 Hello, I caught this thread and wanted see what you guys thought of this 10 Rouble coin. The problem is it weighs 7.0 grams on an electronic scale. Is this a fake coin? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 Hello, I caught this thread and wanted see what you guys thought of this 10 Rouble coin. The problem is it weighs 7.0 grams on an electronic scale. Is this a fake coin? Thanks! That is clearly a fake and I believe most people here would agree that you wouldn't need a scale to weigh it to tell the difference. The details and such are too obvious to tell that it is a counterfeit. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jf7fsu Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 When I first got it I looked at the side markings and believed it to be authentic. They were centered and looked real. Good thing I did not actually pay for it. My dad gave it me it was sitting in a drawer for many many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 If I am not mistaken, that counterfeited coin is actually one of the most notorious coins counterfeited to be used in the Russian black market. If you are to compare the coin that you have with the rest of the coins in this post, you should realize that your coin lacks major fine details compared to the rest here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted July 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 The problem is it weighs 7.0 grams on an electronic scale. Is this a fake coin? According to the Uzdenikov reference, gold and silver coins were controlled and weighed individually by the Russian mint, whereas copper coins were weighed in batches. With the latter, only the average weight counted. With the former, a few individual coins were chosen from each lot and weighed separately, and the lot as a whole was also weighed. Any deviation from the prescribed "remedium" (i.e. tolerance in weight of an individual coin) was punished. For gold coins weighing 6.54 g (e.g., 7-1/2 roubles of 1897 or 5 rouble coins of earlier years), the remedium was 0.04 g (source: page 547 of the reference "Russian Coins" by V.V. Uzdenikov). Since 10 rouble gold coins of this period should weigh 8.6 g, that would make the remedium roughly 0.05 g for them. Obviously, if this coin of yours weighs only 7 g as opposed to 8.6 g, it cannot be genuine. The fake 1899 gold 10 rouble coin shown in the beginning of this thread weighed 8.4 g, which is close, but not close enough to pass as genuine. Every genuine 10 rouble gold coin of this period I have been able to weigh -- only 6 or 7, however -- has weighed exactly 8.6 g on my scales which are accurate to about 0.05 g. And as qxseries already pointed out, the design of this coin is poorly done and very easily spotted. There are much better fakes, as you can see from the pictures from the beginning of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Here are three images from an Australian coin magazine that I got second hand in the recent coin fair. It's printed back in April 1984 which I thought was very interesting. Each image is about 250kb, so 56k downloaders, beware! http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9114/1984coverrw8.jpg http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5375/1984pg6ph3.jpg http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2209/1984pg7ro3.jpg Who would have known that Australia would be involved with this kind of crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted August 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Thanks for sharing these, qxseries. Too bad that the magazine decided not to print images of the obverse of these coins (much less the edges...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 It probably is the same as what jf7fsu has posted. Note how the magazine did say it is in between 5.5 to 7grams? The details too look awfully similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 This thread's been an interesting read. Thank you all for your comments and pictures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Found this auction on eBay today: 10 rouble gold coin 1899 Look at the weight given. Anybody want to take bets as to the mintmaster??? I wrote the seller and asked, but in a similar auction of an 1899 gold 10 rouble coin, they just told me that they couldn't find anything written on the edge although I had spelled out the three possible mintmasters for them (BTW, it is possible to write Cyrillic letters in the eBay form for asking the seller a question). Now, since I have reason to believe that this is another example of the coins we have been discussing in this thread, I have notified the seller of my suspicions. It will be interesting to see what they say this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tane Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 It's the same seller I bought my fake from... I think it's the same coin on the picture too. "garantiert echt" Yeah, right &%¤#&@%! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 That's a pretty high quality coin if it is a counterfeit. Here is an article I came across while reading some other counterfeited coins: http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/newsletter5.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 It's the same seller I bought my fake from... I think it's the same coin on the picture too."garantiert echt" Yeah, right &%¤#&@%! This is most interesting, Tane. I looked at the pictures you posted here, but comparing the reverse image with the auction image, it seems that the parentheses surrounding the mintmaster initials were a little misaligned in the auction coin, causing rim disturbances at 3 o'clock which are missing in your picture. Although I am not yet convinced that it is the same coin, there is something about the color or shading on the obverse which looks similar to the coin you posted. And the fact that this is the same seller from whom you bought your coin is very suspicious. Perhaps they have a whole roll of these things, who knows? Is there nothing we can do about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tane Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 The picture on eBay is taken from a sligthly differend angle and therefore the marks are visible on it I think. I'm quite sure that this is the same coin. But, she says that the "Scan ist massgebend". The coin for sale may not be the coin on the picture, and therefore not a fake, but the coin on the picture is certainly a fake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Tane, I just looked again -- it looks indeed like it is the same coin. There are marks on the obverse, one in front of Nicholas' nose and another in front of the chin, as well as one behind the neck, all in exactly the same place! I think I should write to the eBay police -- maybe posting links to this forum. What do you think? I don't really want to get in trouble with eBay here, but this is really absurd! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tane Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I think I should write to the eBay police -- maybe posting links to this forum. What do you think? I don't really want to get in trouble with eBay here, but this is really absurd! I am not familiar with the eBay police, actually never even heard about it before. If they can do something about this, some of us should contact them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I would have been fooled easily though... all of us did until we looked at the edge and / or compared the mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I would have been fooled easily though... all of us did until we looked at the edge and / or compared the mass. Of course. But the fact that this seller should know by now that the coin is fake, and chooses to list it anyway, is quite disturbing. Perhaps the real police, and not eBay, should handle this. After all, it is pure and simple fraud by now, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tane Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Perhaps the real police, and not eBay, should handle this. After all, it is pure and simple fraud by now, isn't it? Fraud it is. I think that the easiest option is that you contact the Swiss police since you live in there. Handling this may get difficult for someone outside Switzerland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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