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Doogy

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You're quite correct, that one however is not.

 

1400%20Venetian%20ducat%20slab.jpg

 

But that is exactly the point I was making in Doogy's other thread and why I am in favor of buying the more popular world gold coins already slabbed. Just about all of them have been heavily counterfeited. And yes that especially includes those typically sold just over melt value, with the British sovereign probably being the most heavily counterfeit gold coin in existence.

 

 

thanks for the info Doug! Man, it is sad to see such heavy counterfeiting on these things, especially for the ones i'll most likely collect. Any idea why so much faking on the Sovereigns? As far as slabbing goes, are the big (PGC, ANACS, etc.) third party graders experts on being able to tell fake from real?

 

 

thanks!

 

Doug

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Sovereigns were and are faked for so many reasons. It's important to remember gold sovereigns are not just collectors coins but are also bullion coins held in gold reserves. It's by far the most recognised gold coin design in the world (and most trusted), thus if you're gonna fake any gold coin to pass off in international payment, what are you gonna chose? Something that people see so much of that they don't take as much notice of them. If they were faking some Russian gold coins instead (and they will do), Russian ones are not seen as regularly and thus people pay closer attention to them, out of interest in the design more than anything.

 

You also have to remember the sovereigns were legal tender coins where the monetary value was just above the gold value thus making real gold forgeries actually still had benefits for the forger.

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Sovereigns were and are faked for so many reasons. It's important to remember gold sovereigns are not just collectors coins but are ...

 

Not to complicate things too much, but often, these countefeit gold coins are actually real gold of correct weight and fineness. They are counterfeited to put gold into a convenient form. It is not like counterfeiting $100 bills at all. It is more like the Egyptian copies of Athenian "owls." The silver was real. The Owls even carried demotic legends, but the coins were made to put silver into a convenient and recognizable form. The intention is not to trick someone any more than an Elvis impersonator expects to be taken for the real Elvis.

 

In the Middle East for 100 years or more, making fake sovereigns or fake US double eagles was just business. If you had any doubts, you could have the coins tested for its gold, a procedure with 3000 years of history, simplified by Archimedes indeed, but attested to in the Book of the Dead -- "my heart has been weighed and is pure gold..."

 

The same applies to the Venetian zecchini, and so on to English pennies Hall haeller and so on and so on.

 

Yes, the problem with counterfeits is the inevitability of fake fakes and phony phonies. So, I agree that buying certified is a safety net when you cannot validate the seller. As we say: "If you don't know your coins, then know your dealer." I would have no problem buying a raw zecchino from a member of IAPN or PNG or ANA. Some know more than others, of course, but with the ANA, the rules are that ONE unidentifed counterfeit is enough to get a dealer kicked out: ignorance is no excuse. So, they tend to be pretty careful.

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Hi and welcome ! :ninja:

I collect mainly Russian coins too, and I like gold a lot. Here's my gold-collection:

Russia:

5 Roubles

906128.jpg

1898

904493.jpg

1901

907433.jpg

1902

899581.jpg

1903

10 Roubles

906961.jpg

1900

908226.jpg

1903

Others:

906542.jpg

Austria, 10 Kronen 1911

905848.jpg

UK, 1/2 Sovereign 1914

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In the seventies the old sovereigns carried a value of 30 to 40% over gold in Belgium

So by counterfeighting in real gold you made a quick 35% gain

 

I saw my exchange agent pick one counterfeight out of a roll of 100 sovereigns brougt in for sale ( the color was off )

But nowadays since old and new sovereigns all go at the price of gold if the weighscale says the weight is ok then the price is ok

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Not to complicate things too much, but often, these countefeit gold coins are actually real gold of correct weight and fineness.  They are counterfeited to put gold into a convenient form.  It is not like counterfeiting $100 bills at all.  It is more like the Egyptian copies of Athenian "owls."  The silver was real.  The Owls even carried demotic legends, but the coins were made to put silver into a convenient and recognizable form.  The intention is not to trick someone any more than an Elvis impersonator expects to be taken for the real Elvis. 

 

In the Middle East for 100 years or more, making fake sovereigns or fake US double eagles was just business.  If you had any doubts, you could have the coins tested for its gold, a procedure with 3000 years of history, simplified by Archimedes indeed, but attested to in the Book of the Dead -- "my heart has been weighed and is pure gold..."

 

The same applies to the Venetian zecchini, and so on to English pennies Hall haeller and so on and so on.

 

Yes, the problem with counterfeits is the inevitability of fake fakes and phony phonies.  So, I agree that buying certified is a safety net when you cannot validate the seller.  As we say: "If you don't know your coins, then know your dealer."  I would have no problem buying a raw zecchino from a member of IAPN or PNG or ANA.  Some know more than others, of course, but with the ANA, the rules are that ONE unidentifed counterfeit is enough to get a dealer kicked out: ignorance is no excuse.  So, they tend to be pretty careful.

 

 

I readily agree, many of the counterfeits are of correct weight and fineness. But by the same token many of them are not. In the middle of the 20th century the numerous factories in the middle east which cranked these counterfeit gold coins out by the thousands per day did not all use the correct fineness & weight. And thus they were able to increase their profits greatly. Bottom line is it just adds another uncertainty to collecting these coins.

 

I have always been in favor of each person following his own preference when collecting coins. But if the object is to collect a given coin, I would much prefer that the coin were genuine instead of a counterfeit - even if it were of correct weight & fineness.

 

I also agree that a trusted dealer is the next best thing to a certified coin. But it does present a different problem. What does the owner do if he ever decides to sell when he is not granted the same level of trust by potential buyers ?

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Gentlemen,

 

thanks for the very enlighting info on the faking of Sovereigns! I have read with great interest, the history and interesting footnotes regarding these coins. I love this forum so far, and everyone has bent over backwards to help this newbie, and it is a great feeling!

Armed with what i've read here, and knowing that a slabbed Sov coin may be the way to go, i just purchased an 1899 Australian Sovereign. Both the obverse and reverse (new terminology for me, thanks Mike M.!) are quite striking and the coin weighs close to a quarter of an ounce. I just paid $160 for it slabbed, so in the research I did, it seems like a fair deal. (below are the pictures of the coin, taken by the dealer)

 

http://www.newtechlight.com/images/9157.jpg

http://www.newtechlight.com/images/9158.jpg

 

that makes three new world gold coins i'm expecting in the next week, and i'm looking forward to each of them! thanks again guys, and I hope the forum doesn't mind continued questions on the subject as i continue to learn and grow.

 

 

Doug

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