The Middles Ages

[mmarotta]

But really, the art does reflect the change in society.  Whether in coin portraiture or music ...

 

(Well, first off, thanks for the thumbnail sketch of history in the previous post. Seriously, it was right on, as far as I am concerned, tightly written and accurate.)

 

Does art reflect change or cause it? Someone invents new things, new ideas, new forms of expression. As easy as it is to write about Charles Martel, I think that we underestimate the importance of events that are not wars.

 

Consider what it took to build Charlemagne's castle at Aachen, the first "Romanesque" building. We can say that learning was lost, etc., etc., but someone preserved it an passed it along or they would have been living in huts. The cathedrals and the clocks prove that all knowledge was not lost -- and that knowledge was gained. Clothing and other fashion styles changed. Men wore their hair short and shaved as a sign of humility. (Conversely, in the years of the Five Good Emperors, Romans went the other way, from close cut and clean-shaven to long-haired and fully bearded.)

 

I am not entirely comfortable with the easy observation that Islam was stopped at the Pyrenees. Politcally, it was. That just shows the UNimportance of politics. Read about Pope Sylvester II in the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14371a.htm). The years of his life were 940-1003 AD and, as Gerbert, he brought Arabic astronomy, etc., to the West.

 

Spain was a hotbed of ideas, and had been for centuries. We telescope those centuries. For instance, this reliable Catholic source squashes them into a paragraph:

An exception was made for Jews and Christians, who were allowed to continue their religious observances provided they acknowledged Muslim political authority and paid a tax. In this way there came to be in Muslim lands many communities of Christians and Jews, who sometimes acted as intermediaries in cultural exchange between Muslims and the Greeks and the Latins. Thus Arab Christians were among the translators who (about A.D. 800) translated the works of Plato and Aristotle into Arabic, and ...

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/arab-y67s11.html

 

The years from 750 to 1000 AD are as long as from 1750 to today.

[Ian]

The years from 750 to 1000 AD are as long as from 1750 to today.

 

 

Theodosius was the last Emperor to rule over a united Roman Empire. To me, the sacking of the Serapaeum and its extensive libraries in Alexandria at his instigation in 392 was the real start to the `Dark Ages' (also known as the Early Middle Ages). The fall of Rome itself to the Visigoths in 410 was just an event that followed on from the division and disastrous governance (or more aptly, lack of governance) of both east and west by his two sons Honorius and Arcadius.

[Ætheling]

The conversion of Rome to Christianity could be the starting point of the Middle Ages also... afterall in the West the defining point (to me at any rate) of the medieval period is the influence of the Catholic Church in almost everything.

 

At the other end of the time line you could say the fabric of the medieval period took a while to unravel but the first pulled thread that could not be resewn happened when the 95 theses got nailed to that door.

[Scottishmoney]

Climatologists have been studying climate changes which affected humananity through the ages, recently in the last 10 years they have begun to notice that something catastrophic happened in or about 520 AD which affected tree growth, this being determined through examining tree rings from that era. Apparently, and quite rapidly the weather began to get much much colder in Europe. This may have precipitated the further decline of the Byzantine Empire and of the offspring states from the old Roman Empire in the West. Who knows, they know that the weather changed for the worse, and dramatically so. And it may or may not have affected humanity during that time.

[Ætheling]

I know it used to be alot warmer in the 1100s, England was growing grapes back then. Although the winters were colder.

 

Seems to be getting milder again... if global warming continues it'll be like the 510s again.

[jlueke]

(Well, first off, thanks for the thumbnail sketch of history in the previous post.  Seriously, it was right on, as far as I am concerned, tightly written and accurate.)

 

Does art reflect change or cause it?  Someone invents new things, new ideas, new forms of expression. As easy as it is to write about Charles Martel, I think that we underestimate the importance of events that are not wars.

 

Wars, in my view, tend to be results not reasons. The problem is that historians often focused on them so they are the framework we are left with when discussing changes. I think art can reflect society as well as anticipate change. In 1900 you had Strauss and Vienna waltzing in the past while Stravinsky was very clearly anticipating the violent upheaval that would shortly happen. Maybe mainstream art is a reflection while the avant garde anticipates change which may or may not happen. So by my logic coin art would usually be relfective since it's hard to imagine that a ruler would want new, weird, cutting edge designs to confuse the population (some modern commemoratives excepted).

 

 

 

I am not entirely comfortable with the easy observation that Islam was stopped at the Pyrenees.  Politcally, it was.  That just shows the UNimportance of politics.  Read about Pope Sylvester II in the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14371a.htm).  The years of his life were 940-1003 AD and, as Gerbert, he brought Arabic astronomy, etc., to the West. 

 

Spain was a hotbed of ideas, and had been for centuries.  We telescope those centuries.  For instance, this reliable Catholic source squashes them into a paragraph:

The years from 750 to 1000 AD are as long as from 1750 to today.

 

One of the best history classes I took in school dealt with Spain and the reconquest. During the centuries when Jews, Moslems, and Christians all shared the peninsula the level of tolerance and of creativity and progress was remarkable. When the pope orderd all Jews expelled in the 14th century it was the Spanish who refused.

 

After the reconquest, we quickly see orthodoxy established with the Inquisition. That could be said to directly lead to the decline of Spain as the dominant power.

 

This would actyually be an awesome exhibit: The Spanish Coinage during the Reconquest. Anybody want to fund that?

[jlueke]

I know it used to be alot warmer in the 1100s, England was growing grapes back then. Although the winters were colder.

 

Seems to be getting milder again... if global warming continues it'll be like the 510s again. 

 

And wasn't it colder in the early 19th century? with lots of ice skating?

[mmarotta]

To me, the sacking of the Serapaeum and its extensive libraries in Alexandria at his [Theodosius'] instigation in 392 was the real start to the `Dark Ages' ...

 

I like that terminator. While I appreciate the irony in the last Roman emperor being named Romulus Augustulus, there remains the problem of always marking changes by what happens politically. And, more to the point, perhaps, the Visigoths had been making emperors anyway. Marking the onset of the Dark Ages from the burning of the Great Library is most appropriate. Thank you.

[Ætheling]

And wasn't it colder in the early 19th century? with lots of ice skating?

 

 

Yeah in the 18th/19th centuries the Thames would sometime freeze over in winter... how many times has it frozen over in the last 10 years? (None?)

[Scottishmoney]

Yeah in the 18th/19th centuries the Thames would sometime freeze over in winter... how many times has it frozen over in the last 10 years? (None?)

 

 

Not with all the toxic brew in it surely.

[Ætheling]

Not with all the toxic brew in it surely.

 

I would even like to contemplate what's in that river...

[bill]

This discussion has wandered around a lot of topics from what would seem to be a fairly simple question. I've started and stopped several replies as the topic has morphed.

 

I'm struck by the question of whether to go broad as in Grierson or more granular as in Dark Ages, etc. The approach you choose to adopt is related to the question at hand and where you choose to draw your boundaries. Within a broad notion of medieval as Grierson adopts, one can follow a progression through the Dark Ages forward towards some ideal known as the Renaissance. If your interest is in the Merovingian period, then there are no Dark Ages. Some argue that much of our disdain for the period is a product of Carolingian historians seeking to rewrite history to justify the displacement of the legitimate royal lineage by a family of bureaucrats who were supposed to be loyal to the legitimate heirs to the throne.

 

As you change the scale of your view, different pictures come in and out of focus. Spanning the Merovingian/Carolingian boundary allows one to see the demise of a gold based economy and the emergence of an economy based on the silver penny. Push back into the Roman period, and you can see Charlemagne and Louis the Pious resurrect Roman religious imagery in the form of the temple and emperor title to cast a divine right spin on their political role. Never mind that the Roman temple was not a christian temple, the iconography was familiar as religious iconography.

 

Depending on where you draw your boundaries, you might surmise that art follows cultural change or that art leads cultural change. In practice, both are true. Rosenberg, in his book On Quality in Art: Criteria of Excellence, Past and Present, argues that we judge the quality of art by what we (our culture) know as good art. Before Titan, good art was black and white. Titan did not produce good art. As Titan's art influenced cultural values, color came to determine good art and good artists painted in color. This is way too simple an example, but I hope you get my drift. Sometimes art follows changes in cultural standards, sometimes it mirrors or even drives the change.

 

One can argue about the process by which art might change culture, but Louis the Pious certainly thought he could change culture with his temple coinage. A uniform coinage with a cross and a temple was a powerful statement to the populace whether they knew what the words, XPISTIANA RELIGIO, meant or not. One might argue that it was even more effective that his father's repeated destruction of pagan temples during his annual wars. It was radically different (although his father had introduced the change to a standard), but it relied on the meaning of two symbols the populace would recognize.

 

So, I guess this post has moved even further away from the original question, but sometimes, like tilting a coin on edge to see what you might see, its helpful to wander around.

[Ætheling]

Never underestimate wandering around. I know it drives Michael up the wall (or i imagine it does), he seems a guy to stick with the point in hand but do it in depth.

 

I'm happy to follow the flow of the conversation. The basic point is still reiterated, sure we've erm skated around them (if you pardon the pun), but essentially we have come to the following conclusion:

 

Medieval can be defined by any number of factors be it; religion, art and technology, imagery, climate conditions and the loss of knowledge culminating in the Dark Ages that lead to the medieval period as a period of 'relearning'.

 

One fundamental key point everyone has failed to mention though that is the very keystone of medieval is feudalism.

 

Classical democratic/republican and imperial systems break down and return to a tribal non-monetary way of doing things. The system of dues from one social class to the next without money being involved is the very essence ofthe medieval body politic. The medieval governmental system was a machine. Peasants were the hands and feet, soldiers were the torso and stomach, merchants/gentry were the arms and legs, the heart was the church and the head was the nobility and the monarch.

 

The political system could only work if all parts were there. A headless body wasn't going to get very far, but neither was it if it didn't have hands and feet.

 

Certain events in the 1340s brought over from China on the back of black rats would create a big labour shortage and thus the landowners would have to bribe the peasants (what few survived) to work for them, thus money entered the equation in a much bigger way than previously (where it had been more of an urban and mercantile phenomenon). This became a corruption of feudalism known officially in history books as Bastard Feudalism. It was the beginning of Capitalism, the 1400s marked the slow shift towards wage work rather than payment in kind.

 

This is where the medieval political system breaks down... and early modern primitive capitalism begins.

[banivechi]

And wasn't it colder in the early 19th century? with lots of ice skating?

Yes, 1816 was the year without summer (as result of a big vulcano eruption in South Asia in 1815).

[Scottishmoney]

I would even like to contemplate what's in that river...

 

 

Numismatically yes, otherwise not.

[GDJMSP]

One fundamental key point everyone has failed to mention though that is the very keystone of medieval is feudalism.

 

No I didn't come right out and say feudalism, but that is what I meant by saying the medieval system. And that was exactly my point when I said it didn't really start until about 100 years after Charlemagne.

 

Be all that as it may, the reason I asked the question was because I suspected that the outcome would be as it has been - very little agreeement - and I wanted to see if I was right. In the academic world it's pretty much the same way - ask 10 authorities and you'll get at least 8 different answers.

 

Now to answer the original question - yes, I think medieval coinage ( based on my definition ) is largely overlooked. I will also say that this is changing, for the popularity of this type of coinage is growing, rapidly. And here is where I'll also agree with the part art plays, for it is the gothic style coinage that appeals to me the most. In particular the French of course, because it is after all the most beautiful of the lot

[jlueke]

Now to answer the original question - yes, I think medieval coinage ( based on my definition  ) is largely overlooked. I will also say that this is changing, for the popularity of this type of coinage is growing, rapidly. And here is where I'll also agree with the part art plays, for it is the gothic style coinage that appeals to me the most. In particular the French of course, because it is after all the most beautiful of the lot

 

So I should get the medieval part of my set done first before the prices sky rocket

[bill]

I can't resist one tangential observation about the role of art. I started reading the new biography of the Beatles this evening and the author opens with a quote from Plato. (I know, he's earlier than medieval, but still relevant to the discussion.)

 

When the mode of music changes, the walls of the city shake.

[Ætheling]

No I didn't come right out and say feudalism, but that is what I meant by saying the medieval system. And that was exactly my point when I said it didn't really start until about 100 years after Charlemagne.

 

 

Which explains why in my initial post i said with regards to England medieval starts in 1066, the year the Normans Conquered and brought feudalism with them. The Saxon system was somewhat different, heck they even elected their kings, the Wittan council would sit and deliberate on the best candidate put forward that was descended from Cerdic (in the later years when the Danes were running the show they elected whomever had the bigger army). So what later generations would see as rightful heirs were often overlooked, Edward the Confessor was overlooked twice, in favour of Harold I and Harthacnut, even though Edward was the only one that was of the old royal line.

 

When the Normans took over though it shifted towards primogeniture and keeping accession in the immediate family, although it took until 1189 before the new ideal was realised.

[jlueke]

I can't resist one tangential observation about the role of art. I started reading the new biography of the Beatles this evening and the author opens with a quote from Plato. (I know, he's earlier than medieval, but still relevant to the discussion.)

 

When the mode of music changes, the walls of the city shake.

 

This is so true to deserve another round of elaboration.

 

The madrigal was popular from 1340-1450 a time period many earlier associated with the end of the middle ages.

 

Opera started in 1600 and was established by 1660's in it's standardized form. A very similar time period as the 30 years war and the end of the Renaissance.

 

But other events contributed to the musical changes. Luther, more than anyone, opened the door. By creating a rift between Italian and German churches, a German style of composition developed. I guess the best example would be Bach.

 

Later Mozart would fuse the two disparate styles in his great operas.

 

Anyway, I don't think art ever causes change but it is often at the forefront of detecting change. Whether this applies to the art of the celator is another question. Since state directed art isn't always too cutting edge.

[mmarotta]

And that was exactly my point when I said it didn't really start until about 100 years after Charlemagne.  ... ask 10 authorities and you'll get at least 8 different answers. ... the popularity of this type of coinage is growing, rapidly.

 

1. Through all of this, I have been dying to point out that no one wakes up, looks at the alarm clock and says, "Oh my gosh, honey! We almost overslept! It's time for the Middle Ages to start. Come on!"

 

The abolition of slavery was an important aspect of feudalism. For one thing, there was no Roman law to enforce that status. For another, the Germans generally ignored it. When Hungary was Christianized before 1000 AD, (Saint) King Stephen had to choose between Byzantium and Rome. In choosing Rome, he had to agree to forbid slavery, which made some warlords (ahem, "nobles") unhappy.

 

2. You consider us "authorities"? I'm flattered.

 

3. Like Hard Times Tokens, wildcat banknotes, Conders, ancients, Inaugural Medals, etc. etc., sooner or later, everyone discovers that they have enough Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars. At the ANA convention in Pittsburgh, the Conder collectors were musing about the good old days before everyone else discovered these coins and drove the prices up.

 

A few years back, Clifford Mishler gave a stump speech a few times about his experiences and the future of the hobby. He pointed out that specialization is a trend. Each new area opens up broadly and then collectors learn to specialize as they acquire and exchange more information. In a couple of Dave Bowers' books, he mentions the time when no one collected by Mint mark. The coins of any year were co-equal. At that time, of course, "Penny Whimsy" still existed. Eliot Woodworth started out a druggist and got interested in cents and half cents because his customers would buy them from him and he wanted to know why: even in 1860, they were pursuing varieties. We just did not get around to VAMs for another 100 years.

 

So, "medieval" is one thing, "France" is another, and true specialization awaits.

[Ian]

This is so true to deserve another round of elaboration.

 

The madrigal was popular from 1340-1450 a time period many earlier associated with the end of the middle ages. 

 

(snip)

 

Anyway, I don't think art ever causes change but it is often at the forefront of detecting change.  Whether this applies to the art of the celator is another question.  Since state directed art isn't always too cutting edge.

 

All I can say to that is thank god we have moved along somewhat from the crumphorn. Besides, i'm not too sure that the `arms and legs' of the mediaeval system would have given a monkey's petoot about `art' unless it was helping to alleviate the burden of daily life at the time (mainly focused around staying alive, food, clothing and shelter).

 

As an aside, how many sacks of potatoes could be bought with the weekly pittance a moneyer earned? Do you think this might be reflected in the degree of artistry applied to his coin making?

[mmarotta]

  Classical democratic/republican and imperial systems break down and return to a tribal non-monetary way of doing things. ...  Certain events in the 1340s brought over from China on the back of black rats would create a big labour shortage and thus ...

 

Also imported from China was gunpowder. It made the castle obsolete. It let a footsoldier take out an armoured horseman. The manor system could not withstand the growth of strong kings and large principalities, duchies, etc. The Holy Roman Emperor became more than a figurehead. At the same time, the city was no more or less vulnerable than the castle, so cities rose in political importance. If we mark the beginning of the Dark Ages with the burning of the Library of Alexandria, then we can mark the end of the Middle Ages with the formation of the Hanseatic League.

 

(I sense that in discussing this we are like the five blind men and the elephant. Hopefully, we each of us remember what the other is saying and thereby build a useful picture of what we are talking about.)

[mmarotta]

  As an aside, how many sacks of potatoes could be bought with the weekly pittance a moneyer earned? Do you think this might be reflected in the degree of artistry applied to his coin making? 

 

Ian, speaking of monkeys as you were, there is a Japanese saying: "Even the monkey falls from the tree." In other words, anyone can make a mistake. You did. Potatos are not European. They were imported from Peru. You knew that, of course, you just missed the branch.

 

Wages over time and place can be found from many sources, especially European. We are talking about 1000 years here. So, basically -- and broadly -- a town craftsman or tradesman earned 1 to 3 silver pennies per day and eventually 1 to 3 silver groats a day from the earliest to the latest medieval times, depending on circumstances. We have a lot people named Smith, Tailor, Carpenter, and Prentice. Fewer are named Algorist, Arithmetician and Geometer, though lacking those men, there would have been no cathedrals or clocks.

 

Besides, of course, the medieval period was one in which life on Earth was expected to suck -- and did. So, wages were as low as humanly possible. Only later did the Pisanello invent the medal, the "currency of fame" -- for people not ashamed of themselves for being born.

[Ian]

  As an aside, how many sacks of potatoes could be bought with the weekly pittance a moneyer earned? Do you think this might be reflected in the degree of artistry applied to his coin making? 

 

Ian, speaking of monkeys as you were, there is a Japanese saying: "Even the monkey falls from the tree." In other words, anyone can make a mistake. You did. Potatos are not European. They were imported from Peru. You knew that, of course, you just missed the branch.

 

 

Lol! Of course as we all know, I meant parsnips. There's nothing like deep fried parsnip to get you wishing that some bright spark would head off to find the new world, discover potatos and bring a few back so you can finally savour decent chips with your gruel. ;-)

 

Now if you'll excuse me i've got to swing my way across to the other side of the clearing (dig it man?) for some lute practice. You would have thought that they would have invented 12 bar blues in these mediaeval times, but no such luck.

 

Here's an interesting site for those interested in the musical arts of the time:

 

http://www.music.iastate.edu/antiqua/instrumt.html