1825 Constantine one ruble silver

[gxseries]

Kind of hard to tell from the picture - the embossing seems to be unusually shallow compared to coins struck from that era. It could just be from the photos.

 

It's understandable that since genuine examples are sold for several thousands of dollars, most people are rightfully cautious. The more documentations that you can find, the more it will help to support.

 

I don't think anyone here has ever handled genuine example, much less seen one in person!

[extant4cell]

Hi Armen, No auction house will put it up for auction as an authentic coin, so it must be described as it is, with all information that you have available. If you like you can email letter to me and I'll do my best to translate it for you. You probably unable to upload any more pictures as you have run out of forum space allowance. We all use outside hosts for pictures, as just like you we run out of it very quickly too. My  email is in personal message. Kind regards, Eugene

PS: anyone has other suggestions for Armen on how to sell the coin? 

 

[squirrel]

Of course, Markov is a worthwhile resource, having auctioned a  Constantine Ruble in The New York Sale several years ago.  

Jim Elman, World Wide Coins of California, is another long time Numismatist and dealer, and has been very active in the Russian Numismatic Society. 

He has sold many famous collections such as those of Brekke, RW Julian, and many others.  He has seen it all.  Perhaps more than Markov.

He is in Santa Rosa California.  I can pm to you his tel. and email. 

 

[extant4cell]

I found Spasski's article:

http://vsemonetki.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000009/st007.shtml

[extant4cell]

Just to make it clear, if anyone didn't check the Russian site, I included the link to. Obviously, I didn't identified the coin, I only passes the information, that was generously provided by Gunter, our colleague from Staraya Moneta. 😉

[sigistenz]

Dear Eugene, here is page 212 which was missing above - excuse the delay, I did not have it here.

Sigi

[IgorS]

Probably makes sense to try Sincona in Zurich. I think historically European auctions presented sammlung fertigung (or something like that) in their catalogs, if they felt the item deserved some consideration. The entire story needs to be presented to them and if they feel like it, possibly together with Igor Shiryakov of GIM, they could come up with an interesting truthful description which might get someone (hopefully more than one person) interested in the item.  

[extant4cell]

Thank you Sigi, I'll try to add it as an additional page.

Agree with IgorS, if Sincona could consider this rouble for their sale, I think this would bring
the best outcome for the seller.

[extant4cell]

Here is more, this time from Zander 1996, shared by Knight from Staraya Moneta:

 

 

[extant4cell]

Hi Sigi, I added a missing page you provided to the library

[extant4cell]

https://www.staraya-moneta.ru/forum/messages/forum2/topic276529/message3026083/#message3026083

Interesting material is added by Gunter on SM. A rouble from the same dies was offered by MiM in 1998.

[extant4cell]

Here is my small research article (in English), that came out as a result of collaboration with Gunter and others on SM, material analysis and further coin inspection. The main question in the article that I am trying to answer: is the Arslan collection coin an antiquarian forgery or a novodel? Please let me know what you think of it. We can hopefully discuss it here, or at least it would be great to hear your opinion. To download the article simply follow the link: http://www.numistika.com/books/1825 Arslan Collection Constantine I pattern Antiquarian forgery - novodel.pdf

[sigistenz]

Another important contribution to Russian Numismatics. My sincere felicitations, Sigi

[squirrel]

Eugene, this is an exceptionally well written and presented thesis!  I am unable to find flaw with your conclusion!  Wow.

Armen, my humble appologies for my initial sarcastic reaction to your request for assistance!   It has been something quite special to watch this drama unfold here on the forum. (And as translated by google on the Russian forum)

Regards, and please continue to update us on the story of this coin.  

 

[Armen]

I would like to Thank all the people that helped in this matter Especial Thanks to Eugene, Gunter , Coinpeople and others.

Squirrel No worries 

[extant4cell]

Thank you guys, for your valuable evaluation and your praises are very pleasing. It was wonderful to work with Armen on researching the coin, and with the spark of magic information from Gunter, and others, who positively contributed to discussion, I felt that the puzzle pieces finally fell in place. It was fun to learn typing in German, so I could translate Fuchs's paper piece (one of my highlights). Hope this will help Armen with successful placement of his coin into good auction and sell it well, when (if) he decides to do that. The MiM's sister coin is possibly in Mr. Ushakov collection. He is the top bread man in Russia and not easy to access, but I will try to send him the article via snail mail, only hoping that he will get it and find time to read and respond to my request. 👨‍🌾

[extant4cell]

The article has been updated with additional photographs from Armen, including pictures of Constantine rouble from Hermitage, which Prof. Spasski sent to Mr. Arslan. To get to it, follow the same link.

[IgorS]

I always appreciate Eugene's enthusiasm in newly discovered areas of numismatics. I read the article. It seems very unlikely that during the reign of Nicholas I an attempt would be made to produce a novodel of Constantine rouble at SPB mint. Siberia is not a nice place and no one in their right mind would try to do such a thing.  So I do not see how "it can be reasonably assumed that it was in fact struck in 1845 at St. Petersburg mint...". It would have a smell of..... treason. It always pays to revisit historical events in addition to technological. A new movie about Decembrists just came out - Союз Спасения (Union of Salvation).

General Schubert introduced his plain edge Constantin rouble to the world only in 1857 (after death of Nicholas I) and not even in publication printed in Russian or in Russia.

[extant4cell]

This is a valid point, Igor, that I noted in the article, referring to the possible making of a coin like this in 1845, as a daring attempt that could cost the "prankster" a lot. Though, it was almost 15 years after Constantine I passed away...

The assumption that I made is based only on numismatic attributes of the coin that can be studied, and what I presented in the article is only my line of thought, leaning towards a careful announcement of a new possible novodel made on the blank from 1845 rouble (I may got overexcited with this thought! ). 

There are many things that point to a novodel nature of this coin. 

I am not ready to debate the date of production until (hopefully) we can get additional information on the edge of MiM's rouble. But the hopes of getting it at this stage aren't high. As always I really appreciate your constructive criticism. Thank you! 

My line of thought when I debated this with myself went something like this: I understood that Shubert had this coin way before the end of the reign of tsar Nicholas I, and though he did not announce it to the world until Nicholas passed away, I'd assume that he was a human and could talk about it or even show it to someone.

Again, the workers of St. Petersburg Mint could talk in secret too, as their tongues were not cut off, and let's not forget the assumed engraver, who made some copies of rare medals and coins legally, and (as rumored) not so much.

In any case, the department of finance locked away 5 coins, and instrument with dies in their chambers, but not the hearts of people who knew about the business of Constantine roubles production. There were other ways for a secret news to spread in small circles and attempts could have been made at replicating what at that point of time could be considered lost forever... 

This thought is shocking only until you sleep on it... 

Russia was full of daring people at that time, hence the Decembrists... 

There is an alternative, of cause, that novodel was made in any other year on a "saved" blank or with the use of the earliest found edging tools at the SPB mint.

I have Союз Спасения (Union of Salvation) on my list of things to watch. Thank you for reminding!  

[IgorS]

I will not pretend that I fully know or understand the history behind Constantin rouble, but I did read the related books. Seems in addition to Shubert/Reichel plain edge rouble there were some one-sided splashes in existence and not under lock and key as until 1879 were 3 original sets of dies and 5 coins. As well as the sixth fully produced coin was floating around (probably held by Kankrin and which later possibly appeared in Hamburger 1898 auction). There were also galvano-copies made from Schubert/Reichel coin, it seems. So how do you think these  "novodel" dies would be made at the time to so closely resemble the original? George Champney did not demonstrate his patented technique of making dies from coins until 1876 (at SPB mint).

[extant4cell]

I do not insist that this rouble has been made exactly in 1845, the edge inscription is pointing at that date, though. The alternative would be that this novodel was made in any other year on a "saved" blank or that a new blank has been used, which was made with the earliest found edging tools at the SPB mint, which by coincidence happen to be the edging tools from 1845 (but I'd find this just as unbelievable as making coin in 1845). Going back to 1845, The Arslan coin is not a clone and not an exact copy where dies were made from the coin, so Champney's patent was not employed here. The dies are newly cut very close to the original coin image, but the differences are there. As Fuchs put it, the dies were made by a medalist who wanted to prove that he could make better dies than original ones. Not sure if he succeed in doing this (Fuchs believed he did to a degree), but he made a coin better than Troubetskoy French minted coins in image and in attention to "secret" details. How was that possible without the insider information, where did they get original image from, was the person cutting dies associated with those who were involved in making original rouble, in any way, and when that could have happen? These questions will probably remain unanswered.

[IgorS]

That's what I was asking - how were these dies cut so closely? The process of it, in your opinion. Otherwise all of it is just a speculation, like the words of Fuchs about diemaker's mission.

In any case - my question is hypothetical, no need to answer it.

I recommend to all a great book by Denis R. Cooper - The Art and Craft of COINMAKING, A History of Minting Technology, By Spink and Son 1988. The guy used to be a Chief engineer at the Royal Mint. Many things will fall into place. Collector's talks and fantasies are often quite different from the actual die and coin making technology at the different times in history.  

I wish Armen to sell the coin as it deserves and for seller and buyer to be happy.

[extant4cell]

Where it comes to the 1845 year it is certainly a hypothesis. The production year can be speculated on. 

 

Igor, thank you for an interesting suggestion on a book. We have it in the state library, I will try to access it: https://trove.nla.gov.au/version/22562193

[squirrel]

On 5/18/2020 at 10:53 PM, IgorS said:

That's what I was asking - how were these dies cut so closely? The process of it, in your opinion. Otherwise all of it is just a speculation, like the words of Fuchs about diemaker's mission.

In any case - my question is hypothetical, no need to answer it.

I recommend to all a great book by Denis R. Cooper - The Art and Craft of COINMAKING, A History of Minting Technology, By Spink and Son 1988. The guy used to be a Chief engineer at the Royal Mint. Many things will fall into place. Collector's talks and fantasies are often quite different from the actual die and coin making technology at the different times in history.  

I wish Armen to sell the coin as it deserves and for seller and buyer to be happy.

Been looking for a copy of Coopers book for years.  One recently sold on vcoins for $450!  There is a 32 pg overview softcover out there, by Cooper, Coins and Minting, for $10.

[IgorS]

A long time ago I borrowed it from ANA library. Then found my own copy at a "reasonable" price - I think I paid $150 or so.