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10 kopek 1796 - novodel or business strike?

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This coin is definitely old, it weighs 48,25 grams. The pictures of business strikes and old novodels do not differ much.

As the foot of the 7 is hook shaped, I think it is rather an old novodel. What do you think?

Thank you, Sigi

4nLz72.jpg

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Hi Sigi, I only just finished analyzing 5 cipher kopecks, and didn't move to 10 kopecks yet. This will be a first attempt. It's hard to make assumptions without going deeper into it. The main idea of the analysis was - the provenance that this or that type of coin may have. Currently auction circulated type of 5 cipher kopecks has no provenance and spectral analysis of that coin confirms it's modern origin.

Keeping the idea of provenance in mind, I am sorry to say that, but I believe the type of 10 kopecks that you have has pretty much no provenance and as such - little trust. It's not in GM, not in Ilyin, and even in Bitkin the similar coin type is different. It is the same type of coin as the one that went for sale on Kunker, only that one was made on a new blank, whereas yours made on an old 5 kopeks:

http://www.numistika.com/1757-1762/10%20k%201796.jpg

Here are some of this type's special features as I see them: wider than usual "0" in 10, with somewhat inclined "1". Irregular shapes of letters, particularly "K" and "E" (their feet stick out too far). Crown is of a strange shape and it sits too high up. The distinctive (wrong) feature of the crown is that the top ball with a cross sit on top of 2 parallel support lines, which is (I think) not seen on any other coins, including novodels. Also, "II" inside the cipher is further away from cipher ends compare to other types:

Фото 10 копеек 1796 года    Фото 10 копеек 1796 года  Фото 10 копеек 1796 года

Your coin is well made, and doesn't come large in numbers (as do the 5 kopecks that now are deemed as counterfeits). It is still possible that it is an old unknown novodel or an old numismatic or jeweler copy (that were sold in some numismatic shops in St.Petersburg in late 19th c. [before the revolt] as originals). The real age can only be confirmed by a spectral analysis of the metal of the coin that was made on a blank, and it is a very remote possibility. Unless fulfilled this will guard these coins from a final judgement. Until then, it can be taken as a novodel, a copy, "Avesta" or an unknonw SPM type without provenance. This is my rough understanding. As I mentioned before, I didn't look into these coins properly yet...

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Eugene, that looks pretty convincing 😕.  As the coin is real old I had not thought of a copy.  It is very smooth, not cast but overstruck.  This nearly perfect overstrike must have required a very powerful press, the kind used in the mint.  Tomorrow I'll take the coin out of the bank to compare it with the m-dv pictures.  Thank you for your great research job - again improving my knowledge of the matter.

Sigi

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Hi Sigi, To tell you the truth, if I saw it for sale, either of them, yours or Kunker's coin, I would go for it.

The thing I wrote above proves nothing yet, apart from that coins of this type have no found provenance yet and that it is different from others. It is unlucky, but it would not be for the first time that the good coins or novodels aren't seeing on the pictures in the old literature. That doesn't make those coins less legitimate.

One thing it doesn't look like, is like one of those modern counterfeit novodels or their likes:

Фото 10 копеек 1796 года

You would never buy a coin like that in a million years!

Your coin and Kunker's one are very well made and most probably at the EM mint:

4nLz72.jpg

 

http://www.numistika.com/1757-1762/10%20k%201796.jpg

The design looks really nice, different from others, but very pretty and the dies were cut by an experienced master with a sure, strong hand.

I would be very careful calling them counterfeits of any kind, those usually come in great numbers due to the greed of those who invest into making them. That's the case with 5 kopecks, I mentioned above.

Given that your coin type is small in numbers and that novodels were ordered as a single piece orders sometimes, particularly, but not exclusively, at the Ekaterinburg mint (including on old coins and with different edge designs), where the novodel dies were made from scratch, without using old, kept design elements as sometimes seeing on SPM novodels, and thus design looks different from the rest of the novodel coins - that would be my best bet.

The last thing that I would do, if I was you, is casting this coin away. Let's research it further. Let's try to find other coins of this type, if we can, and see how many of them are known. So far we know only two and if anything, to me - it is a good sign.

My opinion, for the moment, is that this coin is a novodel made on special order. To determine its real age and to prove it's origin, someone would need to run a metal analysis on Kunker's coin.

Can I ask you how long you had your coin in the collection and how did you came by it?

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Hi Eugene,  thank you for your research and comments. Today I checked my coin against all the m-dv picures, originals and novodely.  As you said the only match is with Künker's auction of Dec.3, 2015,  then this same coin appeared again 1/2 year later at Aleksandr on May 27,  2016. I saw mine cheap at an eBay Britain "buy it now" offer. I think I was very lucky to see it instantly after insertion and reacted right away. The seller was reluctant revealing it's provenance, upon my 2nd inquiry he answered laconically, "I had some family who spend time in Russia working".

I had never seriously considered the type because out of reach. Now I am very happy with it,  as the link between Ekaterina's 5-kopek and Paul's reoverstrikes. It is old and looks close enough to the original. Of course I'll be on the lookout now for upcoming matches. Happy hunting 😳

Sigi

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About 2 weeks ago.

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Thank you, especially for solving my little problem with authority.  At first glance I took it for the real thing but you opened my eyes. :art: 

Sigi

 

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Hi Sigi, I thought to see if Russian forum could bring any clarity to this, but it didn't. The topic was silently moved over to "numismatic rubbish" section without any explanation. It added no new information, unfortunately. Until we get more information on this coin, we can think about it anything we like with no proof. Here is the link to Russian site with translation to English:

https://translate.google.com.au/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.staraya-moneta.ru%2Fforum%2Fmessages%2Fforum43%2Ftopic215457%2Fmessage2308764%2F%23message2308764&edit-text=&act=url

And original Russian link:

http://www.staraya-moneta.ru/forum/messages/forum43/topic215457/message2308764/#message2308764

 

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I watched the Russian forum's reaction, the replies are enigmatic to me, nothing concrete to bring the matter forward. :confus: Anyway,  the coin serves at least as a filler, I am happy to have found it at a give away price. Should I see another one, I'll post it.

Sigi

 

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I read comments from Starsya Moneta forum. I think their point is that as coin is over struck on other 5 kopeck coin this implies that it is a fake.

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May be I am mistaken, and it is a valid point. I'll need to reread Spassky on novodels, etc. But for some reason I was under impression that on special orders they did make novodel coins on old coins to mimic overstrikes if those were the instructions of the mint's VIP customer... Do you guys remember or know anything on that matter? Or novodel like coin automatically becomes a living proof that coin is a fake if it is made as an overstrike? Please enlighten me.

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I am assuming Sigi bought the coin at a price of a copy, which further identifies the community's thoughts on that coin. Last time I remember giveaways on Ebay was in 1999.

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I did a bit of a looking through the novodel sections to see if there is any connection between novodels and overstrikes and actually found very little. These coins, for example sit among novodels, but are they really novodels? If they are, than anything is possible... but of cause provenance is a big bonus with any questionable coin.

Фото Деньга 1796 года  Фото Деньга 1796 года

Фото Деньга 1796 года

Фото 5 копеек 1781 года СПМ

 

 

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The last digit of the coin above, the 5kop1781СПМ, is manipulated, I have held this coin in hand and under the microscope. I think it was discussed in this forum a while ago. I do not remember any novodel as an overstrike.  As to the purchase of my coin - the seller is obviously not a coin man. This was the only coin among his other stuff. I doubt that he knows about real coins, copies or fakes. As there are only copies of the 10kop1796 on eBay,  he must have made his price according to theirs.

Seeing it on eBay at £48 "buy it now" I rubbed my eyes in disbelief,  then hurried to buy it before anyone else. :yahoo:It looked like the real thing. Even in hand color and surface look old and trustworthy. But Eugene convinced me - it is an imitation to say the least. I feel ashamed that even after my 56 years of coin collecting experience I was fooled. Now that I have it I'll tolerate it as a filler. It looks old and attractive, other than the normal copies and I do not expect to ever get the real coin.

Sigi

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