Jump to content
CoinPeople.com
extant4cell

Rare 1758 SM pyatak (5 kopecks) and the scroll differences for coins of this year

Recommended Posts

Waiting for it in the mail excitedly. Just managed to secure it for a reasonable price.

http://www.numistika.com/1757-1762/1758%20Rare%20type-II%20scroll%20pyatak.jpg

Only 4 coins with this scroll are known to me (all SM and from the same die pair). I have one in a low grade already in my collection and this is a second of the collectable grade coins that I've seen. The first one is here: https://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/p,199544/image.html

I am wondering if you can check your 1758 pyatak coins and try to find another coin with similar scroll ends. Similar request on Russian forums in different times didn't bring any new results. In order to understand what is so different about scrolls on this coin I'm posting a small diagram below that hopefully will be able to help:

http://www.numistika.com/1757-1762/1758%20Types%20of%20scrolls%20on%20pyataks.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent post.   Congrats and thanks.   Keep such info coming!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/16/2018 at 6:01 PM, extant4cell said:

http://www.numistika.com/1757-1762/1758%20Types%20of%20scrolls%20on%20pyataks.jpg

HI Eugene, congratulations for finding an outstanding coin again and thank you for another important contribution to numismatics. You widened my horizon once again. As to now I did not care much about the scrolls but there are indeed distinct variants and you categorize them as to provenience and abundance.  I got the 1758 scrolls type I (Ekaterinburg and Moscow), type II, and type IV, see them in that order below. Sigi

5kop1758EMfotoaufweiss.jpg

5kop1758MMfcoinp.jpg

 

 

 

 

5kop1758sestfotoaufschw2.jpg5kop1758sestfotoaufschw1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love your coins, Sigi. The last two are featured in my catalog to represent the types, as you know. :) (along with some of your other coins)

The first two SM scrolls (type II and III) are related. It seams that type III was "carved" out of type II. That could possibly be the very first scroll to appear on 5 kopecks at all (as SM production was kicking in first, I assume). It is a mystery to me why they decided to shave the scroll down and why there are so few coins with the scroll type II. Perhaps the side of the right scroll end was damaged on the coin model and they had no other choice, but to shave it down, "carving" the new type of the scroll out of it, salvaging it, and transferring it to the master dies. That would at least explain why the details of scroll type III are always so "sketchy" on the coins. It was always hard to believe that they made nice coin all around and didn't care much for the scroll ending on SM coins. Didn't make much sense... I originally thought that type III came from type I, but they seam disconnected compare to type II.

Note, that later SM type IV always goes in combination with the "copper" eagle (without an asymmetrical right wing) known only on SM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Belatedly I now inserted the 1758 MM which I had overlooked. It is a representative of type I same as Ekaterinburg.  I appreciate your research:art:

Sigi

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's right. You have a late variant of MM 1758 pyatak there. Where mint masters already had an opportunity to use their "shaving" tools, fixing the sides of the scroll a little and the top of the left wing on the eagle, making it straight. Here is an example of the early MM type, that partly survived to 1759:

 

Фото 5 копеек 1758 года ММ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beautiful coins.  Thanks.  You teach us all.  I need to check Sigi's collection again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:bye2:

On 7/21/2018 at 10:23 AM, extant4cell said:

That's right. You have a late variant of MM 1758 pyatak there. Where mint masters already had an opportunity to use their "shaving" tools, fixing the sides of the scroll a little and the top of the left wing on the eagle, making it straight. Here is an example of the early MM type, that partly survived to 1759:

 

Фото 5 копеек 1758 года ММ

The 1758 MM is a difficult date and even more so in acceptable shape. Thank you for showing this type of wing.

DAJ, my collection can still be viewed at www.sigistenz.com

I do not know if the link will work from this post. :pardon:

Sigi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A very long time ago on a whim I've decided to put together a set of Elizabeth 5 kopeks (with and without MM). Somehow it took me about a month, including 1761 (just so happened). Looking back now I see the condition was very low, but I will be honest with you, I was very happy with my accomplishment at the time.

1758c_8.jpg

1758c_7.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am still looking for a more or less decent 1761 MM, they are hard to come by... Elizabeth copper is a very interesting subject to study, though it's hard to find coins in a reasonable grade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to add. It took me a while, when I worked on the catalog, to find a connection of scroll Type III to SPM (SM) mint tools. Finally, I managed to find a 1763 SPM 5 kopecks with that scroll, that proved that coins with that scroll actually belonged to SM. I found only 2 or 3 1763 coins with this scroll, two of which were in a very poor condition. After analyzing coin images found elsewhere, I actually found one in my own collection. It was a pleasant surprise as it is a rare coin :))) 

http://www.numistika.com/1757-1762/1763%205%20kopecks%20SPM%20a%20-%20extant4cell.JPGhttp://www.numistika.com/1757-1762/1763%205%20kopecks%20SPM%20b%20-%20extant4cell.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/27/2018 at 8:02 AM, extant4cell said:

I am still looking for a more or less decent 1761 MM, they are hard to come by... Elizabeth copper is a very interesting subject to study, though it's hard to find coins in a reasonable grade.

Finally found one. Expensive, but one of the highest ones I've seen:

DSCF8057.JPGDSCF8048.JPGDSCF8059.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey lucky you!  The grade is outstanding for the date.  If ever seen it looks terribly ugly. I still have to find mine. My sincere congratulations. :buba:

Sigi

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, Sigi! :) I got another one, as a filler, but it is very ugly just as you said, and still paid well for it. Couldn't believe when this one came along just recently. It's price went through the roof quickly, but it will end up with my other Elizabeth copper. Very happy with it's grade!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for showing, Josh. :art: As you will be aware there are different eagle types in that series. Our friend Eugene wrote a guidebook about the issue which is very useful. I think the eagle on your 1762 is not common for the date (?).

Sigi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am having a hard time seeing differences in the eagles.  I have not seen Eugene's guide, is it online?  I assume the scroll types are from this guide? 

2018-11-10 20.43.21-1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for showing your coins, guys! After I published it, I used the guide myself to better my own collection. I was presented here:

Still, yet, to find time for updating the guide to 2nd edition, translating it in English. Even after the publication,
I am finding more interesting coins, broadening some of the types' years of existence and finding additional
common attributes for grouping. The original publication pretty much nails all the types and is a solid base for collecting.

For the 1762 pyataks with "fluffy" wings (feathers), that you show above, they are, as all 1762, are uncommon, but
I think the less common ones are with "fingertip" feathers that run in two prominent rows, like this one:

show_file.php?fid=1142114show_file.php?fid=1142116

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am embarrased, Eugene, that i did not connect this thread with your previous sharing of your work in the 2016 article.. re reading, i had even posted my compliments there!  I have now looked at your other works that you have translated to English, thank you!   And discovered your website!  Sadly, Russian for me is limited besides what i have gleaned from numismatics, to a single college semester, covering very basic topics, including proper cursive writing, and a limited vocabulary and conjugations.  To tell you how long ago the class was, the instructor was an older lady whom came to the US from Moscow, and was very excited to tell the class about a gentleman named Yeltsin, and some political changes happening back home!  

In those days, I struggled through my copy of Uzdenikov in Russian.  When the English/Russian version was published I bought one of the first available! (From Basok?)

So i know time is precious, and goes by quickly, so if not an in depth translation perhaps a brief synopsis in English someday.  The distinction of eagle variants is most interesting!

Regards.  Josh

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×