sigistenz Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 above - old cipher side / new eagle side Bitkin R2 below - new cipher side/old eagle side Bitkin R1 The two different mules are valued differently - all the guidebooks rate the first variant higher However - in the auctions of the last 7 years recorded at http://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/kid,14/mid,4/nid,34/types.html there appear 17 each*) of both variants - exactly equal numbers. That does not look like a big difference in rarity? Sigi *) some are listed in the wrong place, but there are exactly 17 pictures each mule . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Hi Sigi! What detail do you call a "mule"? I don't really understand. МД site lists only some of the auction sales, not all... Also, people sell there (or rather auction houses accept) what they believe may fetch a reasonably high price, so auction sales not always a correct indication of situation. You may want to look through this list ( http://molotok.ru/listing/listing.php?string=5+%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B5%D0%BA+1788 ) to id the coins you are interested in, to see if it is any different or not from your findings, I sometime do this with other coins I am interested in, as МД is only an approximation of the market situation governed by higher profits... Let us know what you find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted March 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 A mule is the offspring of a mare and a male donkey. In numismatics it means an unnatural die combination. In our case one side of the coin is from the earlier type, the other from the later type and vice versa (crowns small or large, eagle wings broad or narrow). All the guidebooks list them and evaluate them separately (Brekke, Bitkin, Dyakov, Yusupov, Wolmar, Konros, etc.) Of course m-dv.ru does not represent all auctions. But if there are 17 sale records of one variant and 17 of the other it is difficult to understand why they are valued differently in the guidebooks. My upper picture is Bitkin R2, the lower one R1 and they are priced accordingly in all the guidebooks. My point is that their rarity looks not that different to justify R2 vs. R1 or the enormous pice difference. Sigi . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Thank you for that explanation Sigi. I didn't realize that there was a term for a hybrid of two types. It's a good observation as it is, and there are a lot of cases like that on MD, even between the types (example: http://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/kid,8/mid,4/nid,34/types.html ) when coins rarity and the number of sales seam not to make much sense. My question was in the past, what coin is more rare 10 k 1766 with KM edge or 10 k 1767 with KM edge. They both about the same in rarity ( http://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/kid,14/mid,18/nid,29/types.html ), but 1767 has twice as less sales, and I struggled to find one in a reasonable condition for my collection... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Hi Sigi, Once again - Great Coins! I haven't managed to procure a single 1788 mule so far, so I wasn't paying much attention to which type is rarer From my meager understanding all are pretty rare. Based on what I read on Russian forums the old cypher coins are rarer than the old eagle coins. Ilyin evaluated the old cypher / new eagle combination at 10 roubles, hence Bitkin's R2. The other mule is considered the most common of the rare 1788 varieties. There is some debate on why the old style 1788 coin is rarer than your R2 mule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted March 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 My question was in the past, what coin is more rare 10 k 1766 with KM edge or 10 k 1767 with KM edge. They both about the same in rarity ( http://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/kid,14/mid,18/nid,29/types.html ), but 1767 has twice as less sales, and I struggled to find one in a reasonable condition for my collection... Right, Eugene, the 10kop1767-- is difficult, I am still after it. Based on what I read on Russian forums the old cypher coins are rarer than the old eagle coins. Ilyin evaluated the old cypher / new eagle combination at 10 roubles, hence Bitkin's R2. The other mule is considered the most common of the rare 1788 varieties. There is some debate on why the old style 1788 coin is rarer than your R2 mule. Yes, Alex, in my opinion the 5kop1788EM old style both sides is the rarest of the 1788s. It is stll missing with me. Thank you both - and.... HAPPY HUNTING! Sigi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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