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extant4cell

1811 2 Kopecks SPB MK - overdate

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That's a great looking coin. :bthumbsup:

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Truth to be told, I didn't see it until I tried to wash the coin in soap and water. So it was an exciting find for me when I checked it against Michael Zaburaev's catalog. Alas, someone cleaned it with some mild acid, which is fine for modern coins, but not so good for the old ones, and to mask their crimes they used some kind of oily brown-grey paste, which masked the surface imperfections somewhat, with some other details, like overdatiing ( sounds like it went on a lot of dates! :)). I've decided that I can not put a coin in this condition in my collection, must fix it. Started with washing it. Now I'm thinking which risky method to use to fix somewhat porous surface (result of chemical removal of patina). Have one or two ideas, but as I said, they all a bit risky. One thing I don't need to worry about is the original patina damage, there is none left. Someone esle suggested to put the coin in the mouth and suck on it for 5 minutes, it helps to choose the right method. I'm sooo not doing that.... I will not ruin it further! lol I guess, I'd rather have a coin that you have there Steve, it keeps it's grade with its original patina. The one I have would be deemed "cleaning and envo damage" I'm pretty sure. But still I like the challenge. :)

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1810/1811 overdate... it is a great find for me as they are reasonably rare for this type / variant...

 

Checking images of over two hundred 1811 СПБ 2 Kopecks, the only obvious overdates I see are for those with Mikhail Kleiner as mintmaster (MK). I don't see any obvious 1/0 overdates on the more common 1811 СПБ ПС (Pavel Stupitsin) coins.

 

This makes sense if Kleiner (MK) preceded Stupitsin (ПС) as mintmaster, and handed over control sometime in 1811. Coins with both mintmaster marks are found for 1811. Some of the coins minted under MK in early 1811 could have been produced with 1810 dies that were still in good shape and then overdated.

 

For existing 1811 СПБ MK dies (both overdated and new) - ПС, once he took over, could [a] continue to use them in 1811 abandon them and create new 1811 dies with the ПС mark or [c] recut MK-->ПС. I don't recall if MK->ПС is known on 1811 СПБ 2 Kopecks (a quick check of 125 images didn't show any), but if so the variants we could see include:

 

1811 MK

1811 ПС

1811 ПС/MK

1811/0 MK

1811/0 ПС/MK

 

Additionally, there are very rare 1810 СПБ ПС 2 Kopeck coins (rarer than Bitkin's R1 rating). I don't currently know why these exist. Possibly the mintmaster change happened at the very end of 1810, just enough time for new 1810 СПБ ПС dies, even though 1811 MK dies may have already been prepared. In that case though, I would expect at least some 1811/0 ПС coins to be seen.

 

It's an interesting topic for further research though perhaps someone has the answers already.

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In 1810, СПБ ПС is R1 in good grade and is a reasonably common combination for this year. СПБ МК and ФГ in 1810 are more common for this year. СПБ ФГ is only know in 1810. All СПБ coins (2k) reasonably rare in 1810, particularly in good grade. In 1811 both ПС and МК are equally common. I don't expect any ПС/МК or МК/ПС, but re-graving of ФГ into ПС оr МК may have a very slim chance of existing.

 

Steve, are you talking about 2008 M&M sale of 2k СПБ ПС for $2326 in VF ( http://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/id,3031/prohod.html ) or some other coins? I have no idea why that one went that high. Perhaps, it was a coin from a well know collection? I wish there was an image... There are 3 variants of 2k СПБ ПС in 1810, but they all seam to be equally rare.

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1810 СПБ ПС is reasonably common? Lol. It's not at all in my experience. What is your source for that conclusion? You may be right but it doesn't fit with what I've seen. At the time I did my Alexander I Copper research paper, I saw 4 of them. All quite expensive. By contrast, I saw about 110 1811 СПБ ПС. The 1811 СПБ MK is a little scarcer - I saw about 75 of those.

 

Why would you not expect the mintmaster reengraving? Also, I don't have the date Kleiner --> Stupitsin and couldn't find anything in the Mikhailovich corpus. That date would be interesting.

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I don't know the numbers, I go by prices in the catalog, so I may be grossly mistaken and I am glad you corrected me. 1810 СПБ ПС is the highest price for the year, other combinations are approximately 25-30% under, but still reasonably rare. I don't have the dates for the mintmasters, but why would ПС and MK be re-engraved into each other if they coexisted in 1810 and 1811, with 1811 being a common year for these combinations? Doesn't it mean that both mintmasters still worked side by side so to speak in 1811?...

 

post-27191-0-81305700-1377222224.jpg

I made a mistake... :)

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Steve, can you please have a look at this coin? EM HM 2 kopecks.

post-30221-0-60160900-1374405257_thumb.j
post-30221-0-79076600-1374405309_thumb.j

 

There is a discussion going on about it's year on russian forum. Opinions somewhere 50/50 for 1810 or other. The first two numbers and the last two are too far away from each other to suggest 18-10 pair and it has a smooth edge, which is possible, apparently, but it's a fault in edge production (opss, forgot!)...

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.. I don't have the dates for the mintmasters, but why would ПС and MK be re-engraved into each other if they coexisted in 1810 and 1811, with 1811 being a common year for these combinations? Doesn't it mean that both mintmasters still worked side by side so to speak in 1811?...

 

There was a lot going on in the Russian mints during 1810-11 :yes:

I'm not sure Kleiner and Stupitsin necessarily had to 'co-exist'....see my earier reply for why you might see ПС/MK.

 

To make the story much more complicated, the Izhora Mint (Kolpino) - near St. Petersburg - also shows coins with ПС and MK mintmasters. Did they split their time acorss the mints? I don't know. We also find the well known recut mintmark IM / CPB. St Petersburg may well have been supplying Izhora with dies during 1810-1811. There's a good thread here all about it

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php/topic/22308-1811-2k-overstruck-mintmark/

 

Mr one-kuna may have the correct story, as this period around 1810 is of special interest to him

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Steve, can you please have a look at this coin? EM HM 2 kopecks.

 

 

There is a discussion going on about it's year on russian forum. Opinions somewhere 50/50 for 1810 or other. The first two numbers and the last two are too far away from each other to suggest 18-10 pair and it has a smooth edge, which is possible, apparently, but it's a fault in edge production (opss, forgot!)...

 

It's almost certainly 1810. You're right, there are no known dates with that degree of separation - BUT - it's not really what you think it is.

 

Comparing to other coins from the same die (look for the same relative placement of letters/numbers to each other and the eagles).

It is 1810....the digits are normally separated. However, the second '1' is mostly lost in the big planchet defect you see. What you think is the top of a '1' as actually a die defect which can be seen on other 1810 examples from the same die. It's all a coincidence.

 

:yes:

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Thank you for clarifying this, this is very interesting. I will read the thread from 2008. If you don't mind, I'll pass your reply to the owner of the coin on Russian forum. I am sure this will make him very happy. :) ( http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=110208&do=findComment&comment=1161386 )

 

In the thread from 2008 there is this mention by Mr One-Kuna (I edited a little) of mint masters at SPB and IM:

 

СПБ:
MK - Mikhail Kleiner (1808-1811)
ПС - Pavel Stupitsin (1810-1825)


ИМ (KM) [ИМ was КМ for one week only, according to the article by Alex]):
MK - Mikhail Kleiner (1810-1814)
ПС - Pavel Stupitsin (1811-1814)

 

And I must say that I am stunningly impressed by pictures poster by Mr Squirrel!!! Are there more pictures from that coin display that one can see that you know of? I love amateur pictures of rare coins, they show what many professional pictures may not show - coins view by a naked eye under display angle... :)

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It certainly looks similar. I recall the defect was larger in the coin image I saw, so the die was likely deteriorating. I also know the image I saw was not from Wolmar as I've never collected Wolmar images, so yours is likely a different coin. I need to find my image again and do some photoshop overlays to confirm it's the same die.

 

:art:

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