American jailed for 3 years for trying to take 2 coins out of Russia

[ScottO]

handy things wallets.... put em in your wallet with misc other coins and you are fine... or use a boat went to saint petursburg as part of a cruise, very nice it was too no trouble at all, and i got THREE coins from 1760's-80's out

[Candidate]

I want to note that Russia is not only country which has limitations or prohibiting export / import of "Cultural Valuables" across it's border.

As I understand most countries have some rules and laws and procedures for those, including coins.

For example, Germany has formal limitations to take out of the country of "cultural valuables" of 50 years and older also.

By the way, it's funny, but Germany do not let to bring in the country "horror comics" (?!).

Poland, Turkey, Egypt do not let to take out old coins.

USA do not let to bring in some historical artifacts from some countries(for example, Canadian Indian natives); recently at this forum were discussed some new US regulations concerning Roman coins, if I'm not mistaking... etc., etc.

 

I think that each country has the right to have it's own laws and tradition, and Russia is not an exception.

 

But if there is a law, an individual must obey it.

Especially this american tourist was almost surely aware about this law - as he wrapped coins in the towel and packed in the luggage; so most possibly he was violating the law intentionally - but get caught.

 

Surely, this Russian law is "raw", and maybe not enough detailed, not considering real value or rarity of "cultural items" - which formally includes, say, XVI century icons along with 1957' 10 kopeek coin (which costs nothing and has no "cultural value" at all...) but customs officers do not need to be an experts in arts or numismatics - they just proceed their checking formally.

 

In this case, customs simply would not let this guy take out coins without permission - IF HE DECLARED IT IN CUSTOMS DECLARATION; and there would be no criminal case in this case.

But HE DID NOT DECLARE - and the criminal code considers this as "smuggling of controlled items <along with drugs, firearms, etc.> without declaring" (clause 188 part 2) - and you can be punished for 3 to 7 years in prison. (So this guy was even lucky not to get 7 years...)

 

Of course, the law may be too cruel sometimes.

But: how about $1000 fine for spitting in the street in Singapore? Or getting 10 years in prison for tapping woman's hip in a bar? (real case)

Or $80,000 fine for travelling at 140 km/h instead of legal, say, 90 km/h (I'm not sure about figures) in Norway or Finland (if I'm not mistaking, fine is estimated in those countries as certain percent of person's income) ?

 

As for this story - it is now widely discussed in Russian part of internet, including some Russian numismatics forums. This is not the first case of this sort, and I think it can be a reason for Russian legislative institutions to revise the law, making it targeted to proteect real cultural values, not punishing for getting across border some 100-years old junk...

 

... by the way, today his lawyer filed a cassation - read latest news at http://news.yandex.ru/yandsearch?cl4url=www.pravo.ru%2Fnews%2Fview%2F41105

[Candidate]

was the phone russian made ?

It was a Samsung.

[Saor Alba]

Candidate: I think fact that this is being discussed so much in Russia says volumes about how far Russia has come. Will the change to law happen overnight? Probably not, but eventually there will be realisation that there are more important things to busy customs officials with and the laws will be loosened.

[Candidate]

In this case you are legally purchasing souvenirs targeted at tourists (anyone ever been to the Izmailovo market in Moscow?), and no one warns you that you need to declare them

There are very large board signs installed in Russian international airports before the entry into customs zone, where all the prohinited items and limitaions are listed, both in Russian and English. I couldn't find a picture in the web, but day after tomorrow I will be in Sheremetyevo and make a picture for you. In customs declaration form (see picture) there is also a special box to check.

[ScottO]

anyway best place to buy russian coins is bulgaria tourest markets sell some good stuff cheap if you look hard enough.

and that notice was not in the port of st petersburg, at least. i never saw it

[alexbq2]

There are very large board signs installed in Russian international airports before the entry into customs zone, where all the prohinited items and limitaions are listed, both in Russian and English. I couldn't find a picture in the web, but day after tomorrow I will be in Sheremetyevo and make a picture for you. In customs declaration form (see picture) there is also a special box to check.

 

I don't really understand what they are asking on this form. Box 3.4 Cultural Valuables? What is that? To me that is something closer to an important Icon, or a Rembrandt, not a souvenir that I picked up at a local store for $10. And by the way in 2011 a printed soviet paper rouble (they are all dated 1961) will be 50 years old. Does it also become a Cultural Valuable that I must declare?

 

And what is the next tick box - 3.5? I have to declare any printed materials? Why do I need to declare a book that I will read on the plane? And how will I declare all the documents on the hard drive of my laptop?

[Saor Alba]

There are very large board signs installed in Russian international airports before the entry into customs zone, where all the prohinited items and limitaions are listed, both in Russian and English. I couldn't find a picture in the web, but day after tomorrow I will be in Sheremetyevo and make a picture for you. In customs declaration form (see picture) there is also a special box to check.

 

 

Hmm. 3.7 Radioactive materiel, yup, declared it.

[bobh]

There are very large board signs installed in Russian international airports before the entry into customs zone, where all the prohinited items and limitaions are listed, both in Russian and English. I couldn't find a picture in the web, but day after tomorrow I will be in Sheremetyevo and make a picture for you. In customs declaration form (see picture) there is also a special box to check.

3.3 - Narcotics and psychopharmaceuticals -- well, coins can be habit-forming, maybe we better check that box!

 

[Saor Alba]

I admit I have taken out stuff, Tsarist coins, early USSR stuff without even giving it a second thought. Going into the USA customs never even looked at me - rather they were going off on the bejewelled ladies that bought up the amber jewelry and the ivory stuff - REVENUE!!!

[Candidate]

I don't really understand what they are asking on this form. Box 3.4 Cultural Valuables? What is that? To me that is something closer to an important Icon, or a Rembrandt, not a souvenir that I picked up at a local store for $10. And by the way in 2011 a printed soviet paper rouble (they are all dated 1961) will be 50 years old. Does it also become a Cultural Valuable that I must declare?

And what is the next tick box - 3.5? I have to declare any printed materials? Why do I need to declare a book that I will read on the plane? And how will I declare all the documents on the hard drive of my laptop?

In case of any doubt at time of filling the customs form one can alway ask a customs officer. Before crossing the border. Whatever the country is - Russia, or USA, or Germany.

[Candidate]

I admit I have taken out stuff, Tsarist coins, early USSR stuff without even giving it a second thought. Going into the USA customs never even looked at me - rather they were going off on the bejewelled ladies that bought up the amber jewelry and the ivory stuff - REVENUE!!!

Does that mean that you think US customs are so careless and liberal that you can bring in whatever you like? Wanna try ?

 

By the way, one American guy bought some ivory items via ebay 4 or 5 years ago. When the parcel arrived from Thailand, he got arrested and faced 25 years term (not sure what was the end of the story)... Who thinks that 3 years for 2 coins is too cruel - think about 25 years for couple of dead elephant's teeth...

[alexbq2]

Does that mean that you think US customs are so careless and liberal that you can bring in whatever you like? Wanna try ?

 

By the way, one American guy bought some ivory items via ebay 4 or 5 years ago. When the parcel arrived from Thailand, he got arrested and faced 25 years term (not sure what was the end of the story)... Who thinks that 3 years for 2 coins is too cruel - think about 25 years for couple of dead elephant's teeth...

 

Funny coincidence, I just heard on the radio a story about a pool cue manufacturer in England who is facing a misdemeanor conviction and 1 year in jail for smuggling African Elephant ivory into the country and using it to inlay his cues. Don’t get me wrong I would love to strut around a pool table with an ivory inlayed pool cue. Hell, I wouldn’t mind getting my whole car inlayed with ivory. And I’d also like to use an authentic Orangutan’s palm as a back scratcher!

 

But, alas it cannot be. There’s just not enough elephants and monkeys to provide body parts to decadent individuals like myself. And thus I regretfully accept and understand that I should not buy the said body parts from poachers and violate international rules and trade regulations that we can only hope will preserve these animals for a few more generations of children to ogle. I refuse to give up black caviar though! Children don’t like that stuff anyway…

 

But once again I fail to see a parallel between legally purchasing a 1924 silver rouble, which has no great monetary or ‘cultural’ value, and is not made of endangered species, nor can be used as an illicit narcotic. The same coin, that was shipped overseas in millions by the Soviet government itself. And the fact is that at least this was a collectible coin. By the same broad sweeping laws, one can potentially be jailed for not declaring an old 1950's brass 5 kopeeks that might be attached to a set of keys – literally a $0 value. Here we have a law that can jail people for literally - absolutely nothing! But I guess in Russia (in any of its incarnations) it has always been the case that some individual would be plucked out of a crowd and shipped off to some gulag for reasons that are not clear to anyone involved. So perhaps I should not be so shocked, but rather sit back and enjoy my caviar.

[Loyal Citizen]

...I refuse to give up black caviar though! ... So perhaps I should not be so shocked, but rather sit back and enjoy my caviar.

 

Hmmmm....Not bad at all for the "Low Budget" title

I'd love to join, though.

[bobh]

So perhaps I should not be so shocked, but rather sit back and enjoy my caviar.

Sounds good to me! Приятного апетита!

[BKB]

I want to note that Russia is not only country which has limitations or prohibiting export / import of "Cultural Valuables" across it's border.

As I understand most countries have some rules and laws and procedures for those, including coins.

For example, Germany has formal limitations to take out of the country of "cultural valuables" of 50 years and older also.

 

....

 

USA do not let to bring in some historical artifacts from some countries(for example, Canadian Indian natives);

 

...

 

I think that each country has the right to have it's own laws and tradition, and Russia is not an exception.

 

But if there is a law, an individual must obey it.

 

...

 

Of course, the law may be too cruel sometimes.

But: how about $1000 fine for spitting in the street in Singapore? Or getting 10 years in prison for tapping woman's hip in a bar? (real case)

Or $80,000 fine for travelling at 140 km/h instead of legal, say, 90 km/h (I'm not sure about figures) in Norway or Finland (if I'm not mistaking, fine is estimated in those countries as certain percent of person's income) ?

 

 

 

Did not want to get involved here, because I have no reservations about breaking this particular law, however, I do have some thoughts on this law...

 

Never heard of such law in Germany. Must be some silly leftover from DDR. You can freely purchase coins at German auctions, and those are mailed to you, officially and with out any supporting documentation.

 

I do not want to sound like an a-hole, but why would someone defend the laws that are only enforced against the poorest and the least fortunate? Every January New York is flooded with dealers from Russia, who bring kilos of coins to the US from Russia. I am all for enforcement of the law, but I do hate when such is done arbitrarily. By the way, last time I checked, a $150 - 250 payment to a right person sent you to the diplomatic corridor. There, you do not get checked at all. You could also purchase such immunity in other forms. I guess it is all right to steal, rape or pillage if you can afford it and know who to pay off.

 

What ticks me off the most, is that you buy your coin abroad, bring it into Russia, and it becomes this "object of cultural heritage", or "Cultural valuable" or, whatever you call it. What is wrong that picture? It is MY COIN!!!! I bought it! I should be able to do with it as I please! Where is logic in taking property rights from me at the border? While adopting almost every idiotic US TV program or marketing idea, Russia forgot to adopt valuable ideas like property rights, freedoms, and liberties. And, that is a shame. The tradition of nobility having their way, as they please, with serfs and answering only to "pahan" above should evolve into something more civilized. It is 21st century after all...

 

However, it is very convenient to have these laws on the books that call for completely disproportionate punishment to keep the "herd" in check. When I look at a new law, or a law that is new to me, I try to grasp the legislative intent. What is the purpose of the law? What is the underlying reason here? It would be interesting to find out when this law came into existence. Probably at the time when government was killing people for their coins, then selling those coins at western auctions to get funds to fund the world Revolution...

 

As to the US, what can you not bring in here? Nuclear weapon, drugs, food items, elephant ivory? There is a very good and LOGICAL reason for every item prohibited. However, there is a huge difference between bringing in and taking out. You position yourself as a scholar of the law, thus, you should see the difference between these two and why use of it in your argument fails. Cicero would...

[one-kuna]

While adopting almost every idiotic US TV program or marketing idea, Russia forgot to adopt valuable ideas like property rights, freedoms, and liberties. And, that is a shame.

 

Bravo BKB, very well said !

Also, Russia always has been a country being ten or more years behind US (with few exceptions)

[Candidate]

Also, Russia always has been a country being ten or more years behind US (with few exceptions)

You're right.

For example, an exception is that USSR invaded Afghanistan in 1979, and USA only in 2001.

Or another exception: Russia abolished slavery in 1861 and USA 4 years later - and it required a Civil War.

Also, Russia stopped capital punishment in 1999, while USA is only Western "democracy" which continue to legally kill own citizen.

USA is one of only 5 countries of the world where a minor can be sentenced to death - being a member of nice company together with Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

And USA is the only country in the world where a mental patient can be sentenced to death.

[Saor Alba]

One thing I would like to share about my opinion of what happened in the Soviet Union is that it is truly a testament to the Russian people and determination that they were able to perform the remarkable feats of engineering that they were given the circumstances - all the political meddling, the long Siberian exiles etc. Yet Andrei Tupolev and Sergei Korolyev were able to build amazing aircrafts that were well ahead of their time, and put rockets into space and then a man in space. So all politics out the door please, lets give a round of admiration and applause to the remarkable determination of the Russian spirit that has achieved so much despite so much more!

 

Russia is a great country and even greater people.

[Candidate]

I refuse to give up black caviar though!

Which caviar do you prefer? Iranian?

Maybe you like to have a Habana after dinner too?

 

But once again I fail to see a parallel between legally purchasing a 1924 silver rouble, which has no great monetary or ‘cultural’ value...

 

If you fail to see a parallel, I can try once again to explain, it is relatively simple:

Purchasing and posessing (as well as selling, etc.) a 1924 silver rouble is legal.

But according to Russian law, it is formally considered a "cultural" valueable (being a numismatic item older than 50 years).

(As I already wrote, this law is not good enough, I agree - but it is still the law).

And taking an item of "cultural value" out of Russia without permission is against the law.

 

The same coin, that was shipped overseas in millions by the Soviet government itself

Maybe it does not have anything in common with discussed case; but it is interesting: could you please inform details about how 1924 rouble coins was "shipped overseas in millions by the Soviet government" ?

 

But I guess in Russia (in any of its incarnations) it has always been the case that some individual would be plucked out of a crowd and shipped off to some gulag for reasons that are not clear to anyone involved

Oh, sure!

I clearly remember times of my childhood... when anyone could be sent for 10 years to GuLAG for spitting in the street...

 

By the way, it might be interesting for you to learn that in 1939 (along with 1938 that was most severe year of pre-war "stalinist purges", despite that many consider "year 1937" to be a synonim of those) the total population of GuLAG was about 800,000.

And total number of prisonersin 1939 was around 1,600,000 (as people were imprisoned not only in camps of "GuLAG" system, there were other penitentiary systems as well).

85% of those were pure criminals (and about 300,000 people were jailed for "State crime", i.e. were political prisoners).

For your reference, population of USSR was about 170 million then.

 

On other hand, according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics:

"In 2008, over 7.3 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at year-end...

2,304,115 were incarcerated in U.S. prisons and jails..."

In 2008 USA population was approx.305 million though...

 

According to these figures, USA'2008 did not go far from USSR'1939...

[Candidate]

Never heard of such law in Germany

An American citizen never heard of something, hence it does not exist...

 

... but why would someone defend the laws that are only enforced against the poorest and the least fortunate?

I do not defend this law.

I explain why this poor (or rather silly) American student was sentenced to 3 years - in full accordance with the law.

 

Every January New York is flooded with dealers from Russia, who bring kilos of coins to the US from Russia.

 

Are you sure they all are smuggling these "kilos of coins" ?

It is not impossible or even very hard to obtain a legal permission - especially for professional art (or coin) dealer.

 

By the way, last time I checked, a $150 - 250 payment to a right person sent you to the diplomatic corridor.

 

I would advise you not to do it anymore.

One time they sent you to diplomatic corridor, another time - for 5 years to jail for bribing a customs official...

 

I guess it is all right to steal, rape or pillage if you can afford it and know who to pay off.

 

Maybe.

You should know better - I spent only about 2 years in USA and am not so accustomed with your local traditions...

 

It is MY COIN!!!! I bought it! I should be able to do with it as I please! Where is logic in taking property rights from me at the border?

 

Will be my words exactly when I will try to bring in USA the ivory broach which my late grandmother left to our family and find myself jailed in USA for it...

 

While adopting almost every idiotic US TV program or marketing idea, Russia forgot to adopt valuable ideas like property rights, freedoms, and liberties. And, that is a shame. The tradition of nobility having their way, as they please, with serfs and answering only to "pahan" above should evolve into something more civilized. It is 21st century after all...

Oh, yes... we are all poor bastards here in Russa; "serfs" and "pahans"...

And you are all noble knights bringing light of democracy to all the world and teaching everyone valuable ideas...

 

By the way, do you know that during 8 years of USA occupation of Afghanistan (2001-2009) the manufacture and export of heroin and opium in this country has increased 44 (FORTY FOUR) times ?

 

However, it is very convenient to have these laws on the books that call for completely disproportionate punishment to keep the "herd" in check.

 

I agree.

Same as in USA they can put anyone in jail for 1 year or for 25 years for bringing in an ivory decoration, while I do not think that anyone from Forbes' billionaires list in USA has any problem with having it if he would want.

Or Cuban cigar.

Or orangutan palm.

 

What is the purpose of the law? What is the underlying reason here? It would be interesting to find out when this law came into existence.

I think this law was aimed to stop the uncontrolled illegal export of real cultural values (as ancient icons or famous artists' paintings) in times when any tourist from Iowa could get anything in Russia for couple of dollars - i.e., in beginning of 1990's - right after the "democratic changes" inspired by "the winners in the Cold War", inclusive.

Actually, the law was adopted in it's initial form, if I'm not mistaking, in 1993.

Many things changed since then - for instance, most cultural valuables are now brought INTO Russia, instead of being brought OUT.

And the law in it's current form is obvioulsy not so good anymore, having lost it's once protective role and function.

 

You position yourself as a scholar of the law

 

Did I ?

[IgorS]

By the way, it might be interesting for you to learn that in 1939 (along with 1938 that was most severe year of pre-war "stalinist purges", despite that many consider "year 1937" to be a synonim of those) the total population of GuLAG was about 800,000.

 

 

 

That's because 10th of millions never made it there and just disappeared.

 

This is a coin forum. We should stick to numismatic (and related) subjects.

[BKB]

Candidate, do you really hate elephants so much? I, personally, would never use elephant ivory in billiard cues I build as a hobby. I do not think a pretty white trinket is worth killing of a great animal. As an attorney, and, incidentally, a low level scholar of the law, I find reason and logic in US ivory import laws. The law of Russia on export of "cultural valuable" would make more sense in terms of fairness (not logic), had it been uniformly enforced. However, the best and the most interesting works of art are "exported" by those above the law. And, pretty much anyone who can afford a payoff falls into that category. Very good example -- enforcement of traffic laws in Russia. Want to try to give 100 - 1000 rubles to a police officer in US that stops you? Did not think so... :-)

 

Do you really believe invading a country before the other one does shows how advance the invading country is? I believe, that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is a shame, that will haunt this country for years to come.

 

Comparing a US prison system to Gulag is fun. I wonder how many prison cells in Russia have TV's... That is why you have to kill a few criminals here, because they are just dying (or, rather, killing) to get back inside after release. The only reason I am against capital punishment, is because an innocent can be killed, and it is a bit final. While, in humane Russia, they just send you to a wonderful cell with 20 criminals, parasha, no police control, and I am not even talking about the means of recreation.

 

Do you really think the slavery is abolished either here or in Russia? This is a very optimistic outlook on things... Same as that law, while it is on the books, the book is slammed only on the poor and unfortunate.

 

I am not even going to start with the argument of what you are doing living here for 2 years...

[BKB]

That's because 10th of millions never made it there and just disappeared.

 

This is a coin forum. We should stick to numismatic (and related) subjects.

 

I agree 100%. Maybe Mr. candidate can share some insight into some interesting numismatic subject?

[Saor Alba]

Gees, back on topic folks: