alexbq2 Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 That's a very good question which deserves a serious, carefully considered and respectful reply. That coin is not from the same set of dies as kopeikin's. But as Shtirlic pointed out the mintage volume for this coin is very high, so it's difficult to draw conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 That coin is not from the same set of dies as kopeikin's. But as Shtirlic pointed out the mintage volume for this coin is very high, so it's difficult to draw conclusions. I agree. However, given the way that the dies were made, variants are quite normal and to be expected. Aside from those minor differences which are normal for coins of this time, the major elements are not significantly different, such as the "chicken" eagle (as described by vit986) or the supposedly suspicious crown. I think Shtirlic has made a significant observation and raises a very good and very reasonable question which is worthy of a response in kind. IF (and I want to emphasize the word "if") this coin is a forgery, then it is a very dangerous one that would easily fool many advanced and experienced collectors and dealers. So far, I have seen no evidence presented in this thread which I find persuasive (or, sometimes, even relevant) that the coin is false. I have seen ridicule, contemptuous remarks and suspicions which might or might not be relevant. But snide remarks and mere suspicions are not proof (and for that matter, they are not even evidence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shtirlic Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 just some addiiton - if you look just for coins of 1804 from last auctions you never find exactly same dies One person did very respective investigation for 2 kop 1802 types and published more than 30 (!) variations, now tell me how many of them really published, and how many can be expected for 5 kop 1804 I don'y think you can say in this case from the picture if it's really fake, without having it in hand Would be interesting to get opinon of BKB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shtirlic Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 P.S. to topic starter to close the discussion from my side - just talked to one very expirienced and known person in copper coinage, the coin is ok as possible to see from the pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 P.S. to topic starterto close the discussion from my side - just talked to one very expirienced and known person in copper coinage, the coin is ok as possible to see from the pictures Well, I'm glad it all cleared up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 Hi, I have this coin. Is not it a beauty? These green spots make me unhappy however. Can anyone suggest please how to get rid of them? I already kept it in olive oil a few months. This dissolves green things somehow but lightens the chocolate background as well. Help! Hi, to get back to your initial question. I have been collecting for a very long time. I must say that I did spoil more coins than I healed. From what I know now I would leave the coin as it is. It does not look too bad. Well above average and the little green does not matter much. Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kopeikin Posted April 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 I thank everyone involved in this discussion. I feel sorry that my simple question stirred so much emotions. At the end I am very happy with the verdict. Best regards, kopeikin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 I thank everyone involved in this discussion. I feel sorry that my simple question stirred so much emotions. At the end I am very happy with the verdict. Best regards, kopeikin very sad that serious discussion did not take place but emotions; how simple is to take a close look at bullets and dots and see that they are ridiculously curved besides the other elements, but better use a popular today statement that because of large mintage it can happened i would be very happy for kopeikin if this coin genuine; because of couple folks believe that this coin is a genuine one - it can be genuine only in this thread and with these folks but not others if this coin genuine (i will let you know little later) - kopeikin, i will send you a nice auction catalog with copper coins free of charge in memory of this forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 So far, I have seen no evidence presented in this thread which I find persuasive (or, sometimes, even relevant) that the coin is false. grivna1726, before doing such conclusion, could you pls then take a close look at bullets and dots and explain to this respectable forum "your opinion" WHY these elements are curved on kopeikin coin but not observed on others known and genuine your promt respond would be appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 pls tell me what is the difference between current coin and this from from Gorny, keeping in mind how many dies were produced for 26Mi mintage this coin from Gorny (Bakken collection if not mistaken) is genuine one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 grivna1726, before doing such conclusion,could you pls then take a close look at bullets and dots and explain to this respectable forum "your opinion" WHY these elements are curved on kopeikin coin but not observed on others known and genuine your promt respond would be appreciated Kopeikin has told us that the coin has come from a well-known and reputable dealer in Russian coins. Thus the coin is reasonably presumed genuine unless proof to the contrary is provided. Neither kopeikin nor anyone else is required to prove that the piece is genuine. The burden of proof falls entirely upon the person who is making the extraordinary claim (i.e. the person who claims that it is false) to demonstrate that it is false. I see nothing about kopeikin's coin which causes me to doubt its authenticity. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen no evidence produced by anyone here that even remotely begins to meet the standard required. If you have proof that the coin is false, then I respectfully request that you provide it now. I am not interested in becoming involved in a long and fruitless discussion with you and will not respond any further, so I suggest that you save your time and energy for someone else who might. Once again, if you have proof that the coin is false, please provide it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 if you have proof that the coin is false, please provide it. grivna1726, bullets and dots are curved which never been observed on genuine coins your promt respond would be appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 grivna1726, bullets and dots are curved which never been observed on genuine coins your promt respond would be appreciated The coin is struck with a deteriorated die. Look at all the cuds. Could the dots have become slightly missformed through the same process of die deterioration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 The coin is struck with a deteriorated die. Look at all the cuds. Could the dots have become slightly missformed through the same process of die deterioration? i am very curious how you came up with it - from russian forum where i placed this coin at, my main suspected point is that this coin is a real curved one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shtirlic Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 ok, look here http://m-dv.ru/catalog/prohod,32027/coins,...7559/photo.html http://m-dv.ru/catalog/prohod,28562/coins,...2498/photo.html http://m-dv.ru/catalog/prohod,8806/coins,2...2771/photo.html and many many others .... for those coins bullets and dots are not indication for fakes, dies were fixed during a work you can see on this die that it's already getting some problem in other areas as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 just some addiiton - if you look just for coins of 1804 from last auctions you never find exactly same dies this is true and known earlier, however this coin has not just two-three particular elements different but all which is unknown so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 this is true and known earlier,however this coin has not just two-three particular elements different but all which is unknown so far Well, maybe it's a rare die variant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 i am very curious how you came up with it - from russian forum where i placed this coin at, and "remember" already responded with same, jaroslaff made a shot too, but same time he made few mistakes in the past arguing with myself as well, when he in a rush to answer, so- i tell you what, if this die was deteriorated, why the line _______ is so much lifted up to right above the date;why this coin is collected all mismathches and new, never seen before different details; my main suspected point is that this coin has absolutly all details different from others known samles besides the deteriation point which assumed for now; like short or long feather, no feather or more feathers same place, wider or ugly feathers, etc. my suspicion has a subjective point more & more as I looked at this coin; are you represent your opinion or grivna thank you anyway for coming back on subject Couldn't understand what you were talking about until just now I checked the russian forums and saw your post. Perhaps next time you will clue us in first. Here's that thread: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=43484 For those who cannot read Russian - 100% unanimous consensus on the coin's authenticity. Surprised reaction to the said authenticity being questioned, and overall general points on die varieties and wear of the equipment that we discussed here earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 For those who cannot read Russian - 100% unanimous consensus on the coin's authenticity. Surprised reaction to the said authenticity being questioned, and overall general points on die varieties and wear of the equipment that we discussed here earlier. Thank you for this information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 I checked the russian forums and saw your post the reason i put that down there (not anybody else) is just to help kopeikin (because i said it is not genuine from a pic) and find more opinions / true opinions on a coin; what the problem over here is that few folks presume that buying coins from dealers guaranteed its authenticy - which is sometimes wrong; in addition, two members from there even insulted me in discussion which took place here - are we doing numismatic forum or something personnel anyway, as promissed earlier, since coin is called genuine one by this forum (not myself) , kopeikin will get an auction catalog with copper coins, pls send your address to my PS and i will be glad to send you free one in memory of this discussion P.S. (kopeikin) you have not said yet what ring/sound comes up from this coin P.S. do not need to respond, if coin rings, alredy know the story - coin makes ring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oregoncoin Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Hi everyone, I'm a long-time lurker here. I collect Russian coins, mostly 18th century copper, and I also collect early federal coins from the good ol' US of A. This is my first post to this forum. I was hesitant to respond because, to me, collecting coins is all about having a good time, and something about the way this thread started out didn't send off the fun vibes I'm looking for in my hobby. :-) But I decided to take the plunge and post something because I wanted to answer the original poster's question about removing the spots. Been there! In my humble opinion, it's impossible to tell what those spots are, and how they might react to different solvents, etc. without seeing the coin in person, but based on the photos, here's my two cents... First, for what it's worth, the coin looks authentic to me. The style of the letters, bird, dots 'n dashes :-) are all right, the die breaks and retained cuds are typical for the series, and there is even mechanical- / shelf-doubling below the crosslet of the "4" in the date, which is a striking "error" that probably wouldn't show up so sharply on a cast counterfeit. (Edited to add that the line on the edge doesn't look like a casting seam to me. Instead, I think it's simply a crack in the collar; kind of like a die crack, but in the collar instead of the obverse or reverse die.) Anyway, I guess you never know, since some fakes are so good nowadays (even being struck over original coins), but here, the surfaces look right, too. What I mean is that there is some light pitting in the fields on the date side, which suggests that the coin was buried soon after it was struck. Then, I imagine, when it was dug up, it was lightly cleaned. I suspect that the lightly cleaned look, combined with the lack of any real wear, might be the reason why some people's initial impression was to question the coin's authenticity. Coming back to the spots, since my theory is that it was cleaned when it was dug up (just my educated guess, BTW, nothing more), I think the spots are probably stuck on there pretty good, because otherwise, they would have come off during the first cleaning. Therefore, I bet olive oil or Care isn't going to work. If it were my coin, and the spots really bugged me, but I wanted to keep the coin, I would see what a little soak in Blue Ribbon does. That stuff can remove spots that all the acetone and olive oil it the world won't budge, and it doesn't react with the metal, so it doesn't affect the patina. I hope this helps the OP. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oregoncoin Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 P.S. (kopeikin) you have not said yet what ring/sound comes up from this coin OMG! Please do not risk dinging-up this beautiful coin by checking what ringing sound it makes! (I'll go back to lurking after I save this pyatak.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 OMG! Please do not risk dinging-up this beautiful coin by checking what ringing sound it makes! (I'll go back to lurking after I save this pyatak.) Please do not go back to lurking - and welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Please do not go back to lurking - and welcome to the forum! Hear, Hear! I promise to be nice. I'm only mean to people who deserve it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 OMG! Please do not risk dinging-up this beautiful coin by checking what ringing sound it makes! welcome to the board it is saved so doing home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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