aleksandr Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 Guys, relax, it's just a coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vit986 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 You want to know the weight? I just weighted it. 51.14 gram No comments are needed after the pictures. Nice crooked crowned chicken... Nice crown too... Nice font! Btw, what is weght for? The known fake had the right weight anyway. sigistenz, your coins are seems to be corresponding to the specimens i had myself graded and have seen in the auction catalogs (means nothing) and just known catalogs. I'm pretty sure they can be veryfied as genuine but most of them are no grade. kopeikin, I would be only happy for you if I'm wrong. And I really hope so. Please send it to NGC. The only thing, this caricature of the eagle was regected by them several times (exactly the same die). same croocked wings and crowns and the other details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 Btw, what is weght for? The known fake had the right weight anyway. The weight was given as requested. i.e. "pls don' t rush the event, better, pls present quality pic, edge, weight and sound does it make" I believe this is probably the reason why kopeikin said (and as you quoted) "You want to know the weight?" before telling us that information. With all due respect to NGC, their opinion, whatever it might be, is only that - just an opinion. I am not sure why US grading companies (whose primary business is US coins) should necessarily be considered as experts in Russian numismatics. Who makes such determinations there? If it is consultants such as experts from the numismatic department of the Hermitage or State Historical Museum, then I would accept their judgment in such matters. But if it is some guy known for his expertise in steps on Jefferson nickels or micrograding Morgan dollars, then I might be less persuaded. I might also point out that US TPG companies have been known to slab counterfeit Russian coins. Even fake Omega double eagles have been slabbed, and those are US coins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 Here are a better images http://img151.imageshack.us/i/5k1804emeaglea.png/ http://img19.imageshack.us/i/5k1804embacka.png/ Yes, the images are much better now, thank you! Do you have another coin of the type? If so, ring this coin to compare. Lay this coin on your fingertip and hit it slightly with the other one. You will hear the coin sound. Do the same thing with the other coin, compare the sound. A cast coin sounds very differently from a struck coin. In my opinion the coin if fake, could only be a cast from moulds taken from an existing coin. I saw cast coins. They were detectable from different ring tone AND from a seam around, where the upper mould and the under mould had been joined. From your edge, I am not quite sure because to the left there is something like a seam. Could you please take another picture centering that ? To show you what I mean see the picture of a cast fake below. Note the seam around the edge. Please let us know about the ring test (if it sounds very different from another, similar, coin) and another picture of the edge. Thank you, Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 The ridge on the edge is troubling, but here’s what puzzles me: 1) The ridge is curved, that’s unusual for a cast 2) The weight of the coin is perfect, also unusual for a cast. 3) Some design element are unusual or uncommon – a cast would be taken off a real coin and would not have any misrepresented design elements. If this coin is struck with newly cut fake dies, there are also questions: 1) What is that ridge on the edge? 2) Why does the die shows signs of being warn out and over used? In real life this would happen after a few thousand strikes. Where are these thousands of fakes? I am inclined to think that the coin is genuine until somebody points out some incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. The ridge could be caused by warn out edging planks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 No comments are needed after the pictures. Nice crooked crowned chicken... Nice crown too... Nice font! Btw, what is weght for? The known fake had the right weight anyway. sigistenz, your coins are seems to be corresponding to the specimens i had myself graded and have seen in the auction catalogs (means nothing) and just known catalogs. I'm pretty sure they can be veryfied as genuine but most of them are no grade. kopeikin, I would be only happy for you if I'm wrong. And I really hope so. Please send it to NGC. The only thing, this caricature of the eagle was regected by them several times (exactly the same die). same croocked wings and crowns and the other details. Belive oit r not - I don't care. I just find it amusing. And i'm am sorry to entertain myself at your expence... Sorry about that. All BS! Why do you show up here and put on airs? You've already been kicked out of here once, what keeps bringing you back? You don't contribute. You laugh at new users. You make them doubt their coins. You always sound like you have some inside knowledge. Where's the evidence? How do you know that NGC rejected this type of coin several times? Do you get a special news letter from them in BC that no one here gets? Where are the links to the Russian forum where this coin was discussed? What do we now know about you? You sell nothing but sub par dug up junk in your Vitamin Shop, and, for fun and profit, you mix in a few cast fakes from time to time! Is this where your unmatched authority on Russian coins comes from? My turn to laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vit986 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 Yes yes. You are the MAJOR conrtibutor . Are you responsible for your words? Rithoric question... What is YOUR problem, my friend? Why are YOU sayng BS all the time? Nobody kicked me out. I simply changed the nickname. There is no inside knowledge, if YOU are not able to open YOUR eyes - it's YOUR problem. not mine. Luck of knowledge too. Please, stop being a cork in every hole in here. It's getting annoying. Evidence you can find on the russian forum. Personaly, I would not bother to proove the obvious. You don't belive me - your problem. I DO trust NGC. I DID submit enough coins to keep my opinion that way. Including this type. Laugh, my friend, laugh - and I'll continue to sell "junk". You forgot my other accounts to mention (thank you for tthe advertisement). Even the one you mention has hunderds of slabbed coins sold... You definition of "junk" is kind of pathetic.... Or well. I guess I'm wrong as usial. Btw. Unlike you I would NEVER lugh at the person no metter how naive he/she seems. Bad taste. Only at the coins... You are no longer welcome there, by the way. If you buy russian copper on Ebay - soon you will figure out the other accounts too, By being not welcome. Regarding authority - unlike you - I do not care if my modest opinion is being heard by anybody. My motiv is to prevent people from making the same mistakes I did a long time ago, my friend... A lot of people helped me when I started to collect russian coins and I feel obligated to do the same when I can. Some of them on this forum, and they know me personally. And why are you? Rithoric question of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 Regarding authority - unlike you - I do not care if my modest opinion is being heard by anybody. My motiv is to prevent people from making the same mistakes I did a long time ago, my friend... A lot of people helped me when I started to collect russian coins and I feel obligated to do the same when I can. Some of them on this forum, and they know me personally. And why are you? Rithoric question of course... And you do this "helping" by selling fake coins from time to time? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shtirlic Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 looking to the edge - coin is ok, just check if it's really curved - it's was main point for fakes published some years ago you can't compare everything to one die listed at MiM, there was planty of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 At any rate, I'm sorry about hijacking the thread. Just got annoyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 looking to the edge - coin is ok, just check if it's really curved - it's was main point for fakes published some years agoyou can't compare everything to one die listed at MiM, there was planty of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 The ridge on the edge is troubling, but here’s what puzzles me:1) The ridge is curved, that’s unusual for a cast 2) The weight of the coin is perfect, also unusual for a cast. 3) Some design element are unusual or uncommon – a cast would be taken off a real coin and would not have any misrepresented design elements. If this coin is struck with newly cut fake dies, there are also questions: 1) What is that ridge on the edge? 2) Why does the die shows signs of being warn out and over used? In real life this would happen after a few thousand strikes. Where are these thousands of fakes? I am inclined to think that the coin is genuine until somebody points out some incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. The ridge could be caused by warn out edging planks. Hi Alex, I do not doubt that the eagle of kopeikin's coin is an original eagle. As has been said, minor variants did occur. At OmniCoin you can see my 1806EM where the feather points at the orb the same way as kopeikin's. Why should anyone bother to engrave dies this perfectly to fake a rather common coin? The eagle is contemporary, I have no doubt about that. The question is if it is a cast copy. We will know when kopeikin posts new edge pictures and the ring comparison. Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vit986 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 And you do this "helping" by selling fake coins from time to time? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question. No, no YOU are selling fakes! Me? Nooooooo..... You! Do I speak at your level now? False accusations unpunished - that is FUN for you... Isn't it? You got annoyed? You? I'm soooooo sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 No, no YOU are selling fakes! Me? Nooooooo..... You! Do I speak at your level now? False accusations unpunished - that is FUN for you... Isn't it? You got annoyed? You? I'm soooooo sorry... Just a reminder (of course you use to be And986): http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=25724 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vit986 Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 Just a reminder (of course you use to be And986):http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=25724 Thank you for reminding. That coin is CERTIFIED now as far as I've been told! No grade, genuine. Anyway. What th.. you want from me? Spill it out please and finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 No, no YOU are selling fakes! Me? Nooooooo..... You! Do I speak at your level now? False accusations unpunished - that is FUN for you... Isn't it? You got annoyed? You? I'm soooooo sorry... Vitamin, is everything OK? You are acting a little too hyper... BTW, why do you need many ebay accounts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 Let's vote is the coin genuine or not. What is the name of the dealer who sold the coin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 alexbq2, pls read this http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry370750 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 alexbq2, pls read this http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry370750 Sorry one-kuna, I just glanced briefly at it, but what part is relevant? iThe coin there definitely does not resemble kopejkin's coin? I'll look closer but give me a hint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 they referenced to coin bullets small and large and combination of them if anything unknown so far - it is not genuine, as begemot said that this kind of artifact is 15 rubles in paper money both sides of kopeikin coin does not match with any known to me reference catalogs including GM and dozens of auction sales / and internet data bases, and in my opinion it is not genuine; however as Sigi suggested we can go to the preciese details and see the result (I saw only one about to be the match part - george on horse, the rest looks diffrent from both sides) But the coin there is an undescribed mule. Would be very rare if genuine. And neither side matches kopeikin's coin. With all respect, I think you are comparing apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 But the coin there is an undescribed mule. Would be very rare if genuine. And neither side matches kopeikin's coin. With all respect, I think you are comparing apples and oranges. If so, I stop at this point, as no serious discussion can be reached, I stay with my initial opinion that this coin is not genuine, period. I do not want to reinverse against you yours "comparing apples and oranges" but seems that simple thing that this is an apparent artifact with unlisted both side design you recognize as a geniune coin You asked me for details - my respond was that all details besides george arm are differ from the genuine one, dont you see that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shtirlic Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 pls tell me what is the difference between current coin and this from from Gorny, keeping in mind how many dies were produced for 26Mi mintage http://m-dv.ru/catalog/prohod,32028/coins,...7560/photo.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 pls tell me what is the difference between current coin and this from from Gorny, keeping in mind how many dies were produced for 26Mi mintage http://m-dv.ru/catalog/prohod,32028/coins,...7560/photo.html That's a very good question which deserves a serious, carefully considered and respectful reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 If so, I stop at this point, as no serious discussion can be reached,I stay with my initial opinion that this coin is not genuine, period. I do not want to reinverse against you yours "comparing apples and oranges" but seems that simple thing that this is an apparent artifact with unlisted both side design you recognize as a geniune coin You asked me for details - my respond was that all details besides george arm are differ from the genuine one, dont you see that I have now had the time to read that entire post. 1) The coin presented there as I mentioned earlier appears at the first glance to be an undescribed mule 1806 obverse/1802 reverse. However, the people there spotted that the arrangement of dots on the reverse is incorrect. 2) The obverse (eagle side) is not in question there. On this coin you do not like the obverse. What does the thread that you posted prove? What does it have to do with the coin in question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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