one-kuna Posted March 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 I think it is just a fantasy off-metal piece. which one - ten centimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 which one - ten centimes No, the taler . Those French coins are just the mint patterns, nothing particularly special. I believe you have participated in the Russian forum discussion last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 That's an interesting point. Perhaps Mr. Fenzl can shed some light on the matter? Andreas Fenzl of Göttingen,Germany is the dealer offering the taler strcuk on the 5kop1764. I phoned him today, he is not very communicative about this coin. There is nothing like a pedigree, "from a private collection" was all I got to know. Tom Bakken replied, "Since I do not know the German Taler to well, I can't say that this is a fake struck, but I will think it is because I can't see why this minting should be done at an official mint in Germany." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 I believe you have participated in the Russian forum discussion last year. my last post in that thread left with no respond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 my last post in that thread left with no respond was there a question that required an answer ? what was that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 Andreas Fenzl of Göttingen,Germany is the dealer offering the taler strcuk on the 5kop1764. I phoned him today, he is not very communicative about this coin. There is nothing like a pedigree, "from a private collection" was all I got to know. Tom Bakken replied, "Since I do not know the German Taler to well, I can't say that this is a fake struck, but I will think it is because I can't see why this minting should be done at an official mint in Germany." No surprize here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 was there a question that required an answer ? what was that ? would like to know the original source of 1848 competition in France with making coin dies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 would like to know the original source of 1848 competition in France with making coin dies I am afraid I do not understand the question. Can you please rephrase it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I am afraid I do not understand the question. Can you please rephrase it ? I would like to know the original source (book, or archieve documents) of 1848 competition in France where it says that it was a competition of die design Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I would like to know the original source (book, or archieve documents) of 1848 competition in France where it says that it was a competition of die design you can go ahead and respond but actually looking the answer from a forum member who presented his intrigue story on russian forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I would like to know the original source (book, or archieve documents) of 1848 competition in France where it says that it was a competition of die design Ah, ok, I see what you mean now. Well, I would not call it "competition" - just a selection process. I am not 100% sure where this information came from but it does not sound wrong to me. It is a common practice to select the best design from submitted samples for mass production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 you can go ahead and respond but actually looking the answer from a forum member who presented his intrigue story on russian forum Thanks for your advise - I have managed to use my own resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 if not genuine - grivna can be right with his guess at this time - what do you think BKB We can guess all we like. The proper way would be to start by examining the actual coin and do a die comparison to a number of original thalers. That would hopefully tell the researcher whether the dies were original or copied. I do not know anything about old die availability outside the mint when it comes to German mints. In general, I am very suspect of any newly discovered coin struck at the mint over a coin of a different country which has no business being on that mint. I do not believe in overstruck patterns or presentation pieces, unless this is a pattern of an over striking program. Kind of stupid to make sure that your presentation piece would be uglier than it could have been if struck on a clean polished planchette... At least, heat up the coin and erase the old design if you must use it as a planchette. When it comes to such off-metal strikes, i am 10 times more suspicious. I do understand that lead strikes are normal for die trials. But why in a world would I use a 5 kop coin as a planchette, when it is 3 times thicker than my coin? Moreover, it would require heating the coin up first, because the metal is very hard due to pressure applied during the original striking. Is that not a good way to destroy those dies? Why not just take a silver planchette or a clean copper one? Where would they get the 5 kop piece? Why was it at the mint? As I was saying, we can guess all we like, but there is not enough info to be certain. And, to me it is a modern fake, until proven otherwise. How is this for a theory: This was a Swedish fake 1764 5 kop which that mint produced at the Swedish order. Yep, one of those ugly 5 kop pieces with fancy crowns, you know... One got left over and just hanged around the mint for a few decades to be overstruck into this thaler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Ah, ok, I see what you mean now. Well, I would not call it "competition" - just a selection process. I am not 100% sure where this information came from but it does not sound wrong to me. It is a common practice to select the best design from submitted samples for mass production. so that was a myth regards French competition (a link you provided from staraya moneta) is there any original source of this particular one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 so that was a myth regards French competition (a link you provided from staraya moneta)is there any original source of this particular one No, that was not a myth, that was, as i said above, mint's normal selection process. Here is a nice introduction to the world of patterns (essai in French numismatics) that should help you with your questions. It describes the reasons for such production. http://www.harrybassfoundation.org/patintro.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 No, that was not a myth, that was, as i said above, mint's normal selection process. Here is a nice introduction to the world of patterns (essai in French numismatics) that should help you with your questions. It describes the reasons for such production. http://www.harrybassfoundation.org/patintro.asp so you do not have an specific primary source of the 1848 World-large French competition ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 so you do not have an specific primary source of the 1848 World-large French competition ? You are constantly using the word "competition" which is not correct. Please read the article and I am sure you will realize that this is a normal mint selection process in any country: US, Russia or France. I also believe our discussion is not directly related to the topic. It would be inpolite to continue. Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 so you do not have an specific primary source of the 1848 World-large French competition ? Don't know anything about it, but here's what I found by googling: Le 24 février 1848, après l'abdication de Louis-Philippe en faveur de son petit fils, la République est proclamée avec une rapidité étonnante. Les fabrications monétaires reprennent les anciens types de Dupré, à l'Hercule pour les 5 francs dont les fabrications commencent le 19 mars et au Génie pour les 20 francs dont les fabrications commencent le 12 mai. Le 3 mai, le nouveau gouvernement, élu en avril, décrète la création de nouveaux types pour les monnaies. Le même jour un concours est organisé pour la gravure des coins des nouvelles espèces. Trente et un artistes participent au concours : Alard, Barre, Boivin, Borrel, Bouchon, Bouvet, Bovy, Catel, Caunois, Dantzell, Desbœufs, Dieudonné, Domard, Farochon, Fauque, Gayrard, Leclerc, Magniadas, Malbet, Marrel, Merley, Montagny, Moullé, Oudiné, Pillard, Pingret, Reynaud (termina après la date de clôture), Rogat, Tournier, Vauthier-Galle et Vivier. Tandis que certains ne se présentent que pour un type (Bouchon ou Caunois pour l'argent par exemple), d'autres artistes participent pour les trois métaux (Boivin, Dieudonné ou Oudiné par exemple), et d'autres présentent des épreuves multiples (deux dans chaque métal pour Montagny, quatre en bronze pour Rogat, sept en tout pour Gayrard). Les prix sont obtenus par Merley pour l'or, Oudiné pour l'argent et Domard pour le cuivre. Barre et Oudiné obtiennent un accessit pour l'or, Barre et Domard obtiennent un accessit pour l'argent, Barre et Oudiné obtiennent un accessit pour le cuivre. This site has some photos: http://franc.francais.free.fr/modules.php?...amp;piece=10cco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Don't know anything about it, but here's what I found by googling: Le 24 février 1848, après l'abdication de Louis-Philippe en faveur de son petit fils, la République est proclamée avec une rapidité étonnante. Les fabrications monétaires reprennent les anciens types de Dupré, à l'Hercule pour les 5 francs dont les fabrications commencent le 19 mars et au Génie pour les 20 francs dont les fabrications commencent le 12 mai. Le 3 mai, le nouveau gouvernement, élu en avril, décrète la création de nouveaux types pour les monnaies. Le même jour un concours est organisé pour la gravure des coins des nouvelles espèces. Trente et un artistes participent au concours : Alard, Barre, Boivin, Borrel, Bouchon, Bouvet, Bovy, Catel, Caunois, Dantzell, Desbœufs, Dieudonné, Domard, Farochon, Fauque, Gayrard, Leclerc, Magniadas, Malbet, Marrel, Merley, Montagny, Moullé, Oudiné, Pillard, Pingret, Reynaud (termina après la date de clôture), Rogat, Tournier, Vauthier-Galle et Vivier. Tandis que certains ne se présentent que pour un type (Bouchon ou Caunois pour l'argent par exemple), d'autres artistes participent pour les trois métaux (Boivin, Dieudonné ou Oudiné par exemple), et d'autres présentent des épreuves multiples (deux dans chaque métal pour Montagny, quatre en bronze pour Rogat, sept en tout pour Gayrard). Les prix sont obtenus par Merley pour l'or, Oudiné pour l'argent et Domard pour le cuivre. Barre et Oudiné obtiennent un accessit pour l'or, Barre et Domard obtiennent un accessit pour l'argent, Barre et Oudiné obtiennent un accessit pour le cuivre. This site has some photos: http://franc.francais.free.fr/modules.php?...amp;piece=10cco Thank you Alex. I hope one-kuna will be satisfied with this extract: Here is French to English translation (GOOGLE): On February 24, 1848, after the abdication of Louis-Philippe for his little son, the Republic is proclaimed with astonishing speed. The Minting resumed the old types of Dupre at the Hercules for 5 francs whose products beginning March 19 and engineering for 20 francs whose products beginning May 12 On 3 May the new government, elected in April, decreed the creation of new types for currencies. The same day a contest is held for burning corner of new species. Thirty-one artists participating in the contest: Alard, Barre, Boivin, Borrel, Bouchon, Bouvet, Bovy, Catel Caunois, Dantzell, Desboeufs, Dieudonne, Domard Farochon, Fauque, Gayrard Leclerc, Magniadas, Malbet, Marrel Merley, Montagny, Mullah, Oudiné, Pillard, Pingret Reynaud (terminated after the closing date), Rogat, Tournier, Vauthier-Galle and Vivier. While some may appear as a type (or plug Caunois for money for example), other participating artists for three metals (Boivin, Dieudonne or Oudiné example), and others have multiple tests ( two in each metal Montagny, four bronze for Rogat, seven in all for Gayrard). Prices are obtained by Merley for gold, Oudiné for money and Domard for copper. Oudiné bar and get an honorable mention for the gold bar and Domard get an honorable mention for the money, bar and Oudiné get an honorable mention for copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Thank you Alex. I hope one-kuna will be satisfied with this extract: Here is French to English translation (GOOGLE): On February 24, 1848, after the abdication of Louis-Philippe for his little son, the Republic is proclaimed with astonishing speed. The Minting resumed the old types of Dupre at the Hercules for 5 francs whose products beginning March 19 and engineering for 20 francs whose products beginning May 12 On 3 May the new government, elected in April, decreed the creation of new types for currencies. The same day a contest is held for burning corner of new species. Thirty-one artists participating in the contest: Alard, Barre, Boivin, Borrel, Bouchon, Bouvet, Bovy, Catel Caunois, Dantzell, Desboeufs, Dieudonne, Domard Farochon, Fauque, Gayrard Leclerc, Magniadas, Malbet, Marrel Merley, Montagny, Mullah, Oudiné, Pillard, Pingret Reynaud (terminated after the closing date), Rogat, Tournier, Vauthier-Galle and Vivier. While some may appear as a type (or plug Caunois for money for example), other participating artists for three metals (Boivin, Dieudonne or Oudiné example), and others have multiple tests ( two in each metal Montagny, four bronze for Rogat, seven in all for Gayrard). Prices are obtained by Merley for gold, Oudiné for money and Domard for copper. Oudiné bar and get an honorable mention for the gold bar and Domard get an honorable mention for the money, bar and Oudiné get an honorable mention for copper. That is a shockingly bad translation! I expected better from Google!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 That is a shockingly bad translation! I expected better from Google!!! agreed...but one can get the idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 agreed...but one can get the idea One does get the gist of it. Just keep in mind that when they say "money" they actually mean "silver". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 You are constantly using the word "competition" which is not correct. Please read the article and I am sure you will realize that this is a normal mint selection process in any country: US, Russia or France. I also believe our discussion is not directly related to the topic. It would be inpolite to continue. Regards. i wish staraya moneta folks could read what you trying to exersize over here, not there, first reffering this forum to them, where you have been supported by another member from NY with unexisted myth to introduce them this fake, and when you received a negative reaction you personally said nothing, moreover this is not even you who brought some information on artists, but really what is your proof for that that famous designers used old russian coins for very competitve job instead of using some new planchet availble all over? who is going to believe you on that? the person who manufactured these pieces and you selling them ot keeping? on another hand you are simply back off from the point saying that it is no really important french patterns but it helps a sale for three hundred backs?? let me ask you - do you understand that the coin (10 sentimes) is a FAKE as well as this 1 copper Thaler ?? Yes or no ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 i wish staraya moneta folks could read what you trying to exersize over here, not there, first reffering this forum to them, where you have been supported by another member from NY with unexisted myth to introduce them this fake, and when you received a negative reaction you personally said nothing, moreover this is not even you who brought some information on artists, but really what is your proof for that that famous designers used old russian coins for very competitve job instead of using some new planchet availble all over? who is going to believe you on that? the person who manufactured these pieces and you selling them ot keeping? on another hand you are simply back off from the point saying that it is no really important french patterns but it helps a sale for three hundred backs?? let me ask you - do you understand that the coin (10 sentimes) is a FAKE as well as this 1 copper Thaler ?? Yes or no ?? I've counted at least 8 question marks in your essay and have to tell you I was really lost trying to follow your logic. Anyway, I am going to tell you this: (1) I'm 100% sure that the French 1848 patterns listed above struck on (in these cases) Russian 2 kopeks are genuine (2) I'm not sure where you got the idea about "three hundred bucks" - these coins are not for sale (3) the persons "who manufactured these peices" are, unfortunately, dead by now and I, again, unfortunately, cannot ask them personally how they ended up using whatever they found at the mint to produce these samples instead of preparing new planchets specifically for this task (they were not readily available "all over", by the way) (4) I could not find one word that you liked so much yesterday - the famous word "competition". Probably, because your doubts have been answered by the Google translation. I am really happy that you got a satisfying answer to , at least , one of your questions. In any event, I'd suggest stopping here because it's becoming annoying to the audience...again. I'm done trying to answer your confusing questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 One does get the gist of it. Just keep in mind that when they say "money" they actually mean "silver". Exactly: "Prices are obtained by Merley for gold, Oudiné for money and Domard for copper." thanks for clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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