gxseries Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 One of the rarest coins in the whole Imperial Russian mintage. The mintmaster who worked on this coin is the same person who did the 1834 commemorative Alexandrine Column ruble, Gube. That explains why the image of Alexander I looks too similar except for two newly added elements in the new design of the 1839 ruble. Originally intended as a massive strike or rather, a mass strike of 160,000+ ruble coin was ordered for the soldiers who fought in the Borodin battle. But it seems to be that the soldiers were already "paid" with a normal ruble coin, and so the whole idea of giving out such rubles to the soldiers were completely ruined and these coins could not be circulated to a normal person as this was only intended to be given out to people who fought in the Borodin battle. Hence, a massive meltdown order was declared and it is supposely assumed that only 20,000 are to be left and the rest are to be melted down (what horror) There is also 1.5ruble coin of the same design (in one full ounce), but the order was made all 1.5 ruble coins are to be "EXTERMINATED", so if you can even find one, it is considered to be extremely rare, if not almost impossible and imagine the difficulty of finding a PROOF 1.5 ruble coin. No one has any idea of how much of these 1 ruble and 1.5 ruble coins are left. Anyways, after a long story, here are the pictures of mine. I am not too sure if this is really a genuine coin, but nevertheless, this will illustrate of how one looks like... Hope you enjoyed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 Nice coin. Thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 A link that I found here at Stack's auction site, Feb. 2005 (quite recent): http://www.stacks.com/viewlot.php?auction=...jEwMDQjbG90NDA5 :| @ insane price... US750... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Is there any Borodino ruble advice to be had out there? I have located an authentic 1839, but is has scratches and cannot be NGC certified. How hard and expensive is it to find coins that are NGC certifiable? I am not so concerned about grade – but have been burned badly with Russian fakes. Where to buy with assurances of authenticity? I have no local dealers. Auctions are tough. Same for the 1834 ruble. (I look at my ugly fake as I type.) Thoughts or experiences or preferences? Or does one just find a scratched coin and move on. Thanks. I know prices are awful. DAJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 I think that NCS, part of NGC, will slab a coin and certify it as genuine without the conservation or grading thing. You may want to check their website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Is there any Borodino ruble advice to be had out there? I have located an authentic 1839, but is has scratches and cannot be NGC certified. How hard and expensive is it to find coins that are NGC certifiable? I am not so concerned about grade – but have been burned badly with Russian fakes. Where to buy with assurances of authenticity? I have no local dealers. Auctions are tough. Same for the 1834 ruble. (I look at my ugly fake as I type.) Thoughts or experiences or preferences? Or does one just find a scratched coin and move on. Thanks. I know prices are awful. DAJ DAJ - if it is possible, can you post a high resolution picture of the Borodin ruble that you have? And yes, one of the most difficult thing to counterfeit with both the Borodin and the Column ruble is the hair and ears of Alexsander I. Here is one example: I believe I don't even need to provide a zoomed up picture to compare... But I must warn you - the other elements are so highly detailed that I have hard time telling the differences. Can you post a picture of the counterfeit Column ruble that you have? I am quite interested in how counterfeits of such rubles look like. Most of such commemorative rubles are not readily available these days unless you are willing to pay some insane figures. The last I saw an auction for the Borodin ruble went over 2 grand for a XF (if I am not mistaken) Although the mintage of the Borodin ruble is supposely higher than the Column ruble, for the most disappointing event turn in the numismatic field, a large amount was melted, as well as uncountable were made into jewellery. I remember Goldburg coins auctioned at least 3 different tooled Borodin ruble. I must warn you - even badly scratched, banged, jewellery damaged commemorative rubles are going at a sky rocket price that I cannot keep track with the prices. I don't believe the prices will go down any time soon as well as the Russians are now buying back whatever they can - I sold a 1896 badly scratched commemorative ruble, 1801 Pavel I ruble to Russians and these people are willing to pay! My best advice is, save up really hard until you can find one! I was really lucky as I bought these coins in the past before the fad started... The only thing I regret is not buying a 1839 Borodin PROOF ruble, 1896 Coronation PROOF ruble, and a 1912 100th Anniversary of the 1812 war - all under 500USD each... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hussulo Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Interesting coin especially the triangle with the eye inside surounded by rays (above the portrait) which is proposed to be the emblem of the illuminate (all seeing eye) with links to freemasonary and also found on the US dollar bills. Funny how this is also found on a Russian coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Interesting coin especially the triangle with the eye inside surounded by rays (above the portrait) which is proposed to be the emblem of the illuminate (all seeing eye) with links to freemasonary and also found on the US dollar bills. Funny how this is also found on a Russian coin. Actually it's origins seems to be German, although I cannot prove it yet. The die medelist who made this coin, is actually German. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Thanks so much for your kind response. No, I don't even own a digital camera and my owning this is due to a dumb mistake on an EBAY auction. It is a lousy copy and obviously not silver. Your thoughts are much appriecated. Dwight Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Thanks much. A good idea. Perhaps one that can be graded is a little out of the question, if not in locating then in assuring authenticity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Thanks so much for your kind response. No, I don't even own a digital camera and my owning this is due to a dumb mistake on an EBAY auction. It is a lousy copy and obviously not silver. Your thoughts are much appriecated. Dwight Johnson That's a real pity - I would be interested to know what kind of attributes occur to counterfeit Column ruble. And as for your sake, I hope the Borodin ruble that you are going to purchase is a genuine one. Do feel free to post online auctions, pics, etc, especially if it's Russian coins and ask! That is what this forum is for! Remember, the key diagnostics with the Borodin and the Column ruble is with the hair and ear. Damaged coins often doesn't necessary mean that the coin is genuine as I have seen highly counterfeited coins artifically worn and some damaged just to pass off as genuine... you can name them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 And there is an example of the counterfeit ruble scan that I have... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Will do. The seller is having it ANACS graded on Tuesday and that should establish authenticity, I hope. Would you agree? If I get it then, I may have it conserved amd encapsulated with NGC. NGC will not grade a coin cleaned and with a scratch. So that is the plan. It is great to have a place to go where people like Russian coins. Thanks for the kind responses and interest. Again, the column ruble is a sloppy copy, lighter weight and without the ring of silver. I cannot tell about the sharpness, since it is not in very good condition. Another coin to watch for fakes is the three ruble platinum. That is quite an industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 Another coin to watch for fakes is the three ruble platinum. That is quite an industry. Where are you seeing the fakes? Ebay? This is my only Russian platinum coin. It is the 3 ruble, from an original mintage of 20,023 coins. "2 zolotniks 41 doli of pure platinum from the Urals - 3 rubles in silver" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 OMG AN XF+++ 1828 3 ruble Now I really wished I bought that instead of the commemorative rubles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 It sounds odd now but, when these coins were issued, they were very unpopular because platinum was considered nearly worthless. Because platinum is heavy, sometimes gold coins were counterfeited by using platinum, then applying gold plating to the fake. The Russian platinum 3, 6 and 12 ruble issues are unique in that they were the world's only circulating platinum coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 That is a question I am grappling with. To go after the platinum or try to or to branch out into a Borodino and others, maybe some Alexander I Polish coins. Itis all so costly now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 Let me tell you about platinum rubles. I am a very small time collector. The pride and joy of my collection were seven of these coins. All purchased from the same dealer, a guy with an impeccable reputation, having been in business for 50+ years. It was nice to have this very small time specialty. My coins from him were purchased between eight and ten years ago, the unslabbed ones. Three were slabbed. He encouraged me to get involved with NGC and to be careful about future purchases. So I submitted the four coins for what should have been fast turn around at NGC, and just got the four coins back with the designation of "questionable authenticity." I asked for more info and NGC says it had sent the coins out to two top outside experts for their opinion, which concurred with that of NGC staff about these coins. They are platinum, I think, but fakes. So after enjoying these coins for all of these years while prices have escalated, they have now been returned to the dealer. He was shocked and says "he knows the principles of NGC" and will talk to them. So of my four unslabbed coins, all were fakes. I see these on EBAY and they look pretty suspicious to me anyway. And I keep wondering how all of these coins keep materializing, though many of the fakes are pretty old. So - does one go back to the little focus on these coins or branch out with a Borodino? I cannot do many of these at one time. Either way, I have taken a bath with these coins, and would be suspicious of any non slabbed coin. And I am rebuilding my diminished collection, slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 I really would love to see the pictures. Appearently a shocking report from Germany has shown some interesting data and I urge anyone interested with the history of platinum rubles to read it. http://trajan.numizmat.net/science.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 Yes. This has been around for a while and coins in a top collection were scientifically determined to be fakes. With rgard to my latest unfortunate episode, NGC told me that, "These coins were examined by two independent experts outside the company. It was a unanimous opinion these coins were not genuine. The details in the devices are rough and have an unfinished appearance. The reverse lettering and numerals are not of consistent shape and quality. The fields have a semi prooflike luster while the devices are much lesser quality. We have IBSCC counterfeit reports on these issues in general but not specific to these coins. We can supply you with copies of these reports if you request. These may help in the understanding of our opinion." The coins sure looked good to me, and I seem to own quite a few coins that are obviously fakes - so this came as a total surprise. Caveat emptor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 gx - thanks for the link. I have downloaded the PDF files and will read them later. DAJ - I am very sorry to hear of your bad experience with these coins. IBSSC is a credible source and if its people (IAPN experts) say the coins are bad, then I would take their comments very seriously. Is there any way that pictures or scans of the suspect coins could be obtained? I would very much like to see them if there is any possibility of that happening. I purchased my 3 rubles platinum coin about 20 years ago. I believe it to be genuine, but have never submitted it for certification. It seems to me that the key characteristics identified by NGC are these: 1. details in the devices a. are rough b. have an unfinished appearance. 2. reverse lettering & numerals - inconsistent shape & quality. 3. fields have a semi-prooflike luster but 4. devices are of much lesser quality. I'm attaching much higher resolution images of my coin. I don't believe those described traits fit this coin (although that does not in and of itself establish authenticity). The coin is a prooflike XF and you can see an incomplete wire edge. In the absence of clear pictures of the coins that NGC says are bad, I would very much appreciate any observations you might offer regarding any similarities or differences you observe. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 The other side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Grivna, I urge you to read the pdf files when you have the time. Some of the new evidence is extremely shocking as well as quite "high tech" at the same time. What is more interesting is how difficult it is to determine with the first glance, and that specific density test must be perform to determine such tests. The scientific report on this topic has absolutely threw me off. Counterfeits seemed to have been produced from the early days of the Soviet eras. Appearently the quality is so high that mass spectrometry tests had to be thrown in to check the chemical composition. In all, there are three major different alloys, one is the genuine raw Ural metal, a more refined platinum alloy that was probably used later for restriking, and finally a high quality counterfeit minted in 100% pure platinum, which doesn't make any sense as the technology was not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Your coin looks beautiful and looks to be of a higher grade than mine. All of the fine details are there. It takes this sort of magnification to tell, since these are pretty small coins with lots of detail. Having said that, my coins were very handsome. They looked to be exactly what they were. It is harder to detect fakes in platinum because of patina with platinum. And my fakes were, I believe, made of platinum. If you check out the article posted elsewhere, that study shows what I presume to be mint state coins found to be fakes. Copies were made many years ago. So you really do not know without grading. These things are hot on Ebay! There is an obvious fake with bids at $1000 now. I would not purchase another coin without requiring certification. Anyway, my conclusion is that one does not know unless you have the coin graded. Sorry, no photos. But I do not think you could have told anything from them anyway. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Here is a link to a genuine Borodin Ruble up on auction. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=8435485140 But with that grade, I am sure it will attract very strong biddings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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