grivna1726 Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Well if they can't grade they coin, they should give up putting it in a slab, in my opinion.... I can't speak for PCGS, but it is my understanding that the nongraded "genuine" slabs are new, having been only recently introduced. I believe that they are the PCGS answer to the NCS "genuine" slabs issued by NGC. I have no problem with coins not being graded but certified as genuine. The single most important thing is authentication. If a coin is fake, the grade is irrelevant, whether Poor, MS-70, or anywhere in between. A fake in high grade is still a fake and as such is utterly worthless. Many coins, especially coins hundreds of years old or more, have been "improved" by their owners over the years. You simply can't collect 18th century Russian roubles the way you might collect Morgan dollars - they are nearly impossible to find in choice original uncirculated and certainly are never available by the roll or the bag (unless, of course, you buy them on ebay from China). Today's market has become so focused on grading that it has become the most important thing in many collector's minds, which, in my opinion, is getting it precisely backward. The emphasis is completely misplaced. Unfortunately, "the grading companies" (even what we call them reveals our priorities) are made up of people who can and do make mistakes. It's probably unreasonable to expect that some guy who spends his entire workday doing nothing but staring at the steps on Jefferson nickels will possess expertise when it comes to 18th century Russian coins, or 16th century Scottish coins or whatever else might show up in the grading room. This is why collectors need to study what they collect, rather than relying solely on what some piece of plastic says. End of sermon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 The fake did not sell and has been relisted on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=250417432990 The seller is asking “only” $699, a $50 reduction. Junk is still junk, however, and the piece is worthless. He still says it is Extra Fine + despite the fact that PCGS refused to grade it. RWJ It is gone now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I will repeat the statement and make it stronger: I guarantee it is a fake. I note that one-kunastates that “The fake grade could have been hastily made against a seller who had offered some not genuine coins in the past, but not against this particular slab coin.” I was unaware that this seller had sold fakes in the past but thank one-kuna for bringing this to our attention. RWJ First of all, this is a free discussion, say yes or no. I am waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 It gets better. The following fake 1749 rouble on eBay from China also is in a PCGS holder, with the same registration number as the piece earlier offered by chemart_inc, 14169533: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230341124045 The earlier offering by chemart_inc is still on eBay and viewers may compare the slabs for themselves: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=260399732481 One or both of the slabs has to be fake because of the identical numbers. This has also been reported to PCGS. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 It gets better. The following fake 1749 rouble on eBay from China also is in a PCGS holder, with the same registration number as the piece earlier offered by chemart_inc, 14169533: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230341124045 Here are the images for future reference: The earlier offering by chemart_inc is still on eBay and viewers may compare theslabs for themselves: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=260399732481 One or both of the slabs has to be fake because of the identical numbers. This has also been reported to PCGS. RWJ The images of the chemart offering linked above were posted earlier in this thread. See post #6 in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 A coin in the beginning of this thread is questionable because of its slab, which Chinese could've been duplicated. A coin was taken by auction house (talk to Harvey, why he took it) and was not sold because of not a coin itself - because of its slab. Tricky slab says GENUINE NOT GRADEBLE - what kind of joke is this. I think that grade services confuse customers and themself with such signs and some folks here. A coin now being offered on e-bay from China differ from the one of this thread by numerous details. Gorny coin was not a fake and did not look even close to like obvious Chinese coin and I do not have any data it was returned to a buyer as a fake. I keep FACTS side, not GOSIP. "Notifying" grading service does not make me happy or sad. So what. They not gonnna do anything. Moreover they do concern more how to earn greens - new coins listed on e-bay with same sign GENUINE NOT GRADEBLE. They are real ! As some of "Chinese fakes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoneyeagles Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 agree; to the best of your knowledge do you think a coin itself is not genuine; do you have any references to compare this one with another one, and let say if you see one, can you share it here, thank you on advance. At the moment no... I am not god with spotting fakes yet...Just still working... I don't think anybody is 100% great at it. I have not seen any, that are slabbed on ebay, that are fake...But I've seen plenty of fakes, raw... I saw a morgan, just the other day, with a seated liberty dollar reverse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 At the moment no...I am not god with spotting fakes yet...Just still working... I don't think anybody is 100% great at it. I have not seen any, that are slabbed on ebay, that are fake...But I've seen plenty of fakes, raw... I saw a morgan, just the other day, with a seated liberty dollar reverse! I understand, thank you anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoneyeagles Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I understand, thank you anyway It is hard to spot the fakes in PCGS slabs...But you know what, I'm not too busy, and I'll be on the lookout for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 A coin in the beginning of this thread is questionable because of its slab, which Chinese could've been duplicated.A coin was taken by auction house (talk to Harvey, why he took it) and was not sold because of not a coin itself - because of its slab. Tricky slab says GENUINE NOT GRADEBLE - what kind of joke is this. I think that grade services confuse customers and themself with such signs and some folks here. A coin now being offered on e-bay from China differ from the one of this thread by numerous details. Gorny coin was not a fake and did not look even close to like obvious Chinese coin and I do not have any data it was returned to a buyer as a fake. I keep FACTS side, not GOSIP. "Notifying" grading service does not make me happy or sad. So what. They not gonnna do anything. Moreover they do concern more how to earn greens - new coins listed on e-bay with same sign GENUINE NOT GRADEBLE. They are real ! As some of "Chinese fakes" Some points that need to be made: 1) The Chinese coin has now been removed from eBay because of the complaint to PCGS. 2) The Gorny coin is a Chinese fake and from the exact same mold as the chemart_inc piece. 3) “Genuine not gradeable” means just what it says, that there is damage to the coin preventing an accurate grade. It is better than the old system of returning the coin in the so-called body-bag. 4) The fact that the Chinese are duplicating PCGS slabs, which has been known for some time, should be of concern to everyone. They are also duplicating those of NGC as well. 5) Stack’s accepted the coin for sale because it was graded by ANACS. They cannot check every slab for authenticity. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Mr. Julian, as you are a true expert in this field I thank you for sharing your knowledge freely with us here. You are a true asset (not only) to this website, but Numismatics as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Mr. Julian, as you are a true expert in this field I thank you for sharing your knowledge freely with us here. You are a true asset (not only) to this website, but Numismatics as a whole. The comments are of course appreciated but in all fairness there are several people on this forum who have expertise in areas that I do not, such as the coins of Peter I. It takes many people to make a forum work; shared knowledge by the many is what improves the quality of numismatic information for all of us. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewlot&am...55&lot=6135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewlot&am...55&lot=6135 Chinese fake. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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