RW Julian Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 The seller was notified yesterday morning that the following piece is a Chinese fake: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=260399732481 There has been no response to date and the ‘coin’ is still for sale at a Buy It Now price of $749, roughly $750 more than it is worth. PCGS was also notified that a fake had been slabbed as genuine. The seller is not only offering a fake 1749 rouble but also presents a description that is questionable. The slab says that a grade cannot be given but the seller does so anyway, the caption reading: RUSSIA SILVER ROUBLE/ RUBLE, 1749 MMD, PCGS EXTRA FINE+ The seller is thus clearly saying that PCGS assigned a grade of “Extra Fine +” when this is simply not true. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 The seller was notified yesterday morning that the following piece is a Chinese fake: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=260399732481 There has been no response to date and the ‘coin’ is still for sale at a Buy It Now price of $749, roughly $750 more than it is worth. PCGS was also notified that a fake had been slabbed as genuine. The seller is not only offering a fake 1749 rouble but also presents a description that is questionable. The slab says that a grade cannot be given but the seller does so anyway, the caption reading: RUSSIA SILVER ROUBLE/ RUBLE, 1749 MMD, PCGS EXTRA FINE+ The seller is thus clearly saying that PCGS assigned a grade of “Extra Fine +” when this is simply not true. RWJ Thank you for this post. The slab makes it a particularly dangerous fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altyn Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 What about the slab - is it also a fake? That would help to "save" the PCGS reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I cannot estimate why PCGS renders opins on coins they are NOT experts in. I see stuff in PCGS and NGC slabs all the time, overgraded, misattributed etc. for British hammered. Frankly it is insane. American collectors seem to like the stuff, they flock to buy it. Auld Anne was graded something like VF-35 before I liberated her and let her breath again: A coin which in my opin is no better than a vg-fine, and I paid vg-fine money for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hussulo Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I wonder if the slab is also fake? The Chinese are getting good at counterfeiting the slabs as well as the coins. They even use the right numbers on the slabs, but often the bar codes are different. This one was said to be a fake coin and slab on the PCGS forum: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 What about the slab - is it also a fake? I do not know if the slab is fake or not. However, I am convinced that the coin is false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 What about the slab - is it also a fake? That would help to "save" the PCGS reputation. Apparently the slab is genuine or at least appears to be so. The PCGS website allows slab numbers to be checked. When the number for the fake coin is entered it comes up as a 1749 Moscow ruble. I have just returned from the CSNS show at Cincinnati and find that the piece is still being offered. I also have received no communication from the seller, which perhaps says all that is necessary. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altyn Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 There is a possibility that at some time a genuine 1749 rouble was slabbed by PCGS. Thereafter, the genuine coin was replaced with the fake that we see or a fake holder was manufactured and used to enclose the fake 1749 coin with the same number as was assigned to the genuine coin. From what I can find in the literature, fake PCGC coins are very convincingly looking. It is either that, or we admit that this a case of PCGS having shown incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marv Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 It is either that, or we admit that this a case of PCGS having shown incompetence. No one is perfect. Before PCGS/NGC, experts, even in Russia, were fooled by counterfeits. There is no reason to expect that it won't happen with reputable slabbing companies. The difference here is, if you buy the fake coin in the genuine slab, and you prove to PCGS/NGC that the coin is fake, they will pay you back your money. At least that 's what their guaranty says. Also, if you buy a coin in one of their slabs at a certain grade, and the coin is later downgraded by them, they will pay you the difference between the value at the old grade and the value at the new grade. I understand that PCGS has paid up big time on several occassions. So, for expensive coins, there is some benefit to buying slabbed PCGS/NGC coins beyond just the grade. Perhaps someone should buy this Moscow Rouble and test PCGS's guaranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 Perhaps someone should buy this Moscow Rouble and test PCGS's guaranty. That would require doing business with this seller. I choose to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 This one was said to be a fake coin and slab on the PCGS forum: Was it just someone saying that, or did it actually turn out to be a fake slab? If it's fake, it looks like a reasonably good imitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hussulo Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 There are a lot of fake slabs circulating and not only for PCGS. If you enter the serial numbers they WILL match up with the genuine coin on the PCGS, NGC etc datas. One way to tell is to search auction houses for the particular coin like Heritage. Once you do see the real coin examine it with the suspect coin. The bar codes usually don't match. This is a list compiled by UtahCoin on the PCGS forum. I don't want to take credit for the list in anyway just wanted it to share it here as I believe it is important. I'll put a link at the bottom as a reference for the list: "COUNTERFEIT ANACS & NGC SLAB NUMBERS Please note that these numbers are legitimate numbers for a SINGLE coin. Therefore, one coin bearing these numbers is genuine. These numbers have been copied from photos sent by a seller in China. NGC 1795 Bust Dollar AU55 1871265-009 1795 Bust AU55 1515842-002 1795 Bust AU50 562290-001 1795 Bust AU55 1925095-002 1796 Bust XF40 398818-005 Trade Dollars 1877 S Trade Dollar AU55 562449-008 1877 S MS62 1500053-004 1876 S MS61 3003606-008 1875 S MS61 3003606-008 1877 S MS60 3022418-004 1877 S MS63 1850580-010 1875 S XF45 2068372-004 ANACS 1801 Bust Dollar VF20 2727654 All Old Style Slab 1800 Bust VF35 2820185 1875 CC Trade AU58 Details Cleaned 2951037 1877 S MS60 Details Cleaned DDR 2965234 1878 S AU55 Details Cleaned 2964950 1878 S AU58 Details Cleaned 2951825 1878 S AU55 Details Cleaned 2951825 ANACS Trade Dollars (Cont.) 1878 S EF40 Details Cleaned 2951835 1875 CC AU55 Details Cleaned 2909411 1873 S EF45 Details Cleaned 1504664 1878 S EF45 2731036 1873 CC EF40 Details Cleaned 2950086 1875 CC AU50 Details Corroded 1504683 " http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.c...rd1=fake%20pcgs Some other giveaways if you have the slab in hand. Fake PCGS slabs do not stack with their authentic counterparts. Also, the hologram on the back of the slab is usually of poor quality and prone to wearing away. Here's a good link to the NGC website and pictures of fake slabs: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=954 You can see how good the counterfeiters are getting. It's only going to be a matter of time until it will be really hard for most of us to be able to tell the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 There are a lot of fake slabs circulating and not only for PCGS....You can see how good the counterfeiters are getting. It's only going to be a matter of time until it will be really hard for most of us to be able to tell the difference. Thank you for this information. I don't know about the authenticity of the PCGS slab containing the fake rouble. It looks real enough to me, but then so did the fake NGC slab (as shown by NGC) at first glance. I will be very interested to learn what PCGS has to say about the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 The fake did not sell and has been relisted on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=250417432990 The seller is asking “only” $699, a $50 reduction. Junk is still junk, however, and the piece is worthless. He still says it is Extra Fine + despite the fact that PCGS refused to grade it. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 No one is perfect. Before PCGS/NGC, experts, even in Russia, were fooled by counterfeits. There is no reason to expect that it won't happen with reputable slabbing companies. The difference here is, if you buy the fake coin in the genuine slab, and you prove to PCGS/NGC that the coin is fake, they will pay you back your money. At least that 's what their guaranty says. Also, if you buy a coin in one of their slabs at a certain grade, and the coin is later downgraded by them, they will pay you the difference between the value at the old grade and the value at the new grade. I understand that PCGS has paid up big time on several occassions. So, for expensive coins, there is some benefit to buying slabbed PCGS/NGC coins beyond just the grade. Perhaps someone should buy this Moscow Rouble and test PCGS's guaranty. How about this: I just received an answer from this seller. That is what he responded: This coin was authentificated by two major grading companies: PCGS and ANACS. Also it was offered by Stacks in January 2009 auction.Thank you for your interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoneyeagles Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Just because the slab numbers match with the PCGS database, doesn't mean that it is a real slab... As well as NGC They have gotten good, the basically just copy everything down, put a fake coin, in a fake slab, and try and sell it I found a good link on how to spot fakes... Give me a few Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoneyeagles Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...7US317%26sa%3DN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoneyeagles Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/ig/F...ostics.-1yO.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 How about this: I just received an answer from this seller. That is what he responded:This coin was authentificated by two major grading companies: PCGS and ANACS. Also it was offered by Stacks in January 2009 auction.Thank you for your interest. It is a fake, period. I have been in contact with PCGS and have furnished proof of this. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 How about this: I just received an answer from this seller. That is what he responded:This coin was authentificated by two major grading companies: PCGS and ANACS. Also it was offered by Stacks in January 2009 auction.Thank you for your interest. My observations can differ from others. This particular slab coin was declared a fake without any explanations as we can enjoy reading them in this section. Besides a coin color this slab coin is not so bad. The fake grade could have been hastily made against a seller who had offered some not genuine coins in the past, but not against this particular slab coin. Since a seller responded on my message to him if he reviews this site and he mentioned January Stacks sale, I would not take a side that this one is a fake until I will be able to check Stacks sale as well. Moreover, this slab coin very similar to lot 8260A from Gorny 173. The peeling is notable on this slab coin in two places, which stands for sign of genuine. I very much appreciate a diagnostic procedure from above writer and I made it briefly and was not able to recognize a trick so far. This is my opinion and observation, as anyone else has a right to have one, even mine is different from others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoneyeagles Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 One more thing, I had no clue that the PCGS slabs said, "genuine not gradable" on them, when they were not gradable...I thought they just put genuine on the front of the slab, and they were done with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 One more thing, I had no clue that the PCGS slabs said, "genuine not gradable" on them, when they were not gradable...I thought they just put genuine on the front of the slab, and they were done with it it does not make any common sence indeed; if you cannot grade coin as genuine - why it is still slabed with so genious sign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoneyeagles Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Well if they can't grade they coin, they should give up putting it in a slab, in my opinion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Well if they can't grade they coin, they should give up putting it in a slab, in my opinion.... agree; to the best of your knowledge do you think a coin itself is not genuine; do you have any references to compare this one with another one, and let say if you see one, can you share it here, thank you on advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 My observations can differ from others. This particular slab coin was declared a fake without any explanations as we can enjoy reading them in this section. Besides a coin color this slab coin is not so bad. The fake grade could have been hastily made against a seller who had offered some not genuine coins in the past, but not against this particular slab coin. Since a seller responded on my message to him if he reviews this site and he mentioned January Stacks sale, I would not take a side that this one is a fake until I will be able to check Stacks sale as well. Moreover, this slab coin very similar to lot 8260A from Gorny 173. The peeling is notable on this slab coin in two places, which stands for sign of genuine. I very much appreciate a diagnostic procedure from above writer and I made it briefly and was not able to recognize a trick so far. This is my opinion and observation, as anyone else has a right to have one, even mine is different from others. I will repeat the statement and make it stronger: I guarantee it is a fake. I note that one-kuna states that “The fake grade could have been hastily made against a seller who had offered some not genuine coins in the past, but not against this particular slab coin.” I was unaware that this seller had sold fakes in the past but thank one-kuna for bringing this to our attention. In point of fact this coin was in a Stack’s sale but no one bid on it, which says all that is necessary. I have checked the Gorny piece; it is also a fake. This shows the problem caused by the Chinese fakes and failure of eBay to police the flood of counterfeits coming out of China. The diagnostics for determining that this coin is a fake will not be published here for obvious reasons. They are being furnished to PCGS, however. This is one of the well-known Chinese fakes for the Moscow silver roubles of 1743 through 1756. The obverses and reverses are identical in each case except for the date and mintmaster initials changed in the molds. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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