sbvenman Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I'd be more interested in a book telling of how you acquired all of these artifacts and medals and why you became so interested in Goetz... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted December 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I'd be more interested in a book telling of how you acquired all of these artifacts and medals and why you became so interested in Goetz... I could do that in two paragraphs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbvenman Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Bummer, I was hoping for some romantic tale of long lost memories re-invigorated by an infatuation with goetz-ian memorabilia. Life really isn't the movies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted December 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Bummer, I was hoping for some romantic tale of long lost memories re-invigorated by an infatuation with goetz-ian memorabilia. Life really isn't the movies... #1 A Goetz family member contacted me after seeing my web gallery. They then approached me about buying the assorted Goetz ephemera. Additionally, I search the bowels of dealer collections in Germany. One in particular seems to have some family contacts too as I have picked up most of my more obscure material from them. There's a lot more out there but the current owners want moon money for something I feel should be shared to everyone...altruism should outweigh financial gain. 2# I was floundering in attaining a focused collection direction. I saw the "Black Shame" (penis medal) displayed in a Ron Guth advertisement and wondered who the Hell made that and why? Little did I know it would push me in the direction of a Goetz collection but it did as I loved everything I saw that Goetz created. That was five years ago. Pieces fell into place in contact with Gunter Kienast and his 'passing of the torch' to me by essentially giving me the copyrights to his books, the creation of the karlgoetz.com domain, Goetz family contacting me, etc., etc. Perhaps what advantageously tied this all together for me has been my philosophy that collections should not be hidden behind closed doors but rather, displayed, conserved, seen, and researched by all who are interested. The internet is a godsend and should be used as a tool to alleviate the 'Scrooge McDuck' mentality of world museums as well as the ANA and ANS. ...I digress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I agree with your ideals regarding collections and how they should be available for all to see...the web certainly helps with that as I post all mine to a web gallery of my own making as well. I have always had a dream of getting my collection and adding collections from others into a large library of coins...actual coins, not photos (though an online version would be there as well) where people can go and look at these coins and medals in person...a pipe dream I know. As for owners asking moon money for something that should be shared to everyone...I tend to agree but I also tend to think that I would not want to sell my collection (or any individual example) for less than it is worth either...simply because I have a lot of time, effort, and love...and money... in my collection and I wouldn't let them go for less...then again...in the end, my collection will be there for all to see. I assume all of these medals, regardless of the amount of access you give to them, are owned by you, they are your possessions as any other thing. These medals should be viewed but ownership is a big thing...you cannot expect someone who owns a treasure to give it up to you (you would then OWN the medal) at a loss for the good of all because in the end you will possess the medal and it would be benefiting you. I often feel that I am a TRUE collector and I collect for the only the love of the coin and medal and have little concern over the worth. I sometimes feel I am entitled to better prices because I will never flip coins or see my coins as a means to make a profit. The reality is, of course, that I am not any more entitled to any coin than anyone else, if i want one, I must pay the price like all other private collectors.... Interesting...a big black penis was the catalyst for your current collecting focus...VERY interesting But seriously, I admit I have yet to see work from him that I didnt like. Certainly some are more impressive than others but all seem to share a high quality of artistry, style, and craftsmanship...I am not sure if I would call him the best I have seen, but certainly way up there with a real style that makes his work pretty recognizable (though I often think something might be his work but it isnt). There are some that I find are more ordinary but they cant all be masterpieces. I knew very little about him save a few examples I had seen until I saw your website and read your posts so if you are looking to introduce people to him, you certainly have done that....thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted December 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 These medals should be viewed but ownership is a big thing...you cannot expect someone who owns a treasure to give it up to you (you would then OWN the medal) at a loss for the good of all because in the end you will possess the medal and it would be benefiting you. I often feel that I am a TRUE collector and I collect for the only the love of the coin and medal and have little concern over the worth. I sometimes feel I am entitled to better prices because I will never flip coins or see my coins as a means to make a profit. The reality is, of course, that I am not any more entitled to any coin than anyone else, if i want one, I must pay the price like all other private collectors.... Perhaps I wrote something unintentional...I was speaking about moon money for the more esoteric ephemera such as business receipts, letters, notes, etc., that do not stand on their own as well as they would within a collection where their existence can be seen in context. I have no expectations for someone to sell me their medals or coins at a lower price for the good of the whole...that would certainly be a tad bit arrogant now wouldn't it? Let me give you an example...I know a dealer who acquired a box of office papers that had been emptied from Goetz's desk drawer. Surely these papers had been rifled through many times over the past twenty years. Through research I find that he purchased them for the equivalent of 50 EUR. I approached him about buying the material and he stated he wanted 2500 EU without any guarantee of what would be in the box. Obviously I said forget it, but this is what I am talking about. Someone acquires something cheap then assigns moon money value to it even though the box, on it's own, is probably worth little in comparison with how the papers might be used to put more of the story together. I refuse to bargain with these people... Now, if they truely cared about numismatics they could sell for 100 EU (100% profit) and still be altruistic in helping someone paint a better picture but it is sheer greed when you want 5000% profit just because it came out of a certain persons wastebasket. Interesting...a big black penis was the catalyst for your current collecting focus...VERY interesting Don't tell my wife. Yes, there are a few pieces of Goetz's that are down-right ugly from a compositional view...because these are far and few between it does open a door as to why these would be this way...was he under a time crunch, was he fighting with the old lady, were the Nazi's putting the thumbscrews to him, or could it have just been a bad day? Just one more question to answer...and best answered from the view of the medal in its context to the medals created just before and just after. I think some ideas can be presented to spark the interest...thus why my new web site will have a forum where such topics can be discussed within a wholly Medallic/Exonumia environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 okay, I misunderstood your original statement...I see your point now...certainly the guy was looking to make a windfall profit, knowing that he would probably not make such a profit on the material otherwise, save from a person like yourself. Let face it, Goetz isnt exactly a common household name so its doubtful people are lining up to buy office papers from the guy. That is a shame. Good luck with everything and I look forward, as always, to updates. Oh, and you can call it arrogant, and it probably is, but to be honest...in areas of my collection where I concentrate most of my efforts and passion...I do feel, deep down, that I deserve those coins more than others who might just see them as a means to make a profit...might not be logical but there you go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedeadpoint Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I made the mistake of googling the black shame medal. I can't say I'd be showing that to my friends and family as part of my collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted December 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Oh, and you can call it arrogant, and it probably is, but to be honest...in areas of my collection where I concentrate most of my efforts and passion...I do feel, deep down, that I deserve those coins more than others who might just see them as a means to make a profit...might not be logical but there you go smile.gif I was only directing the 'arrogant' remark towards myself and not you. I see your point though... on another note...here are some quick shots I took of a random selection of drawers just to give you a taste... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted December 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Spectacular setting for an impressive collection of medals. I cringe though at the sight of those entombed in plastic. Tough decisions, but so far I break my medals free from the plastic. I'm making a distinction between those you have stored in capsules to protect them (and can remove at will) and those encapsulated and frozen by the grading services. I guess I'm really reacting to the trend to collect (and pay more) the numbers on the tags than for the pieces themselves. One dealer told me the number really separates the men from the boys when it comes to collecting. If you are willing to pay for that 67, 68, or 69, you prove your manhood. Oh well, a losing battle, but I do what I can when confronted with a slab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted December 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Spectacular setting for an impressive collection of medals. I cringe though at the sight of those entombed in plastic. Tough decisions, but so far I break my medals free from the plastic. I'm making a distinction between those you have stored in capsules to protect them (and can remove at will) and those encapsulated and frozen by the grading services. I guess I'm really reacting to the trend to collect (and pay more) the numbers on the tags than for the pieces themselves. One dealer told me the number really separates the men from the boys when it comes to collecting. If you are willing to pay for that 67, 68, or 69, you prove your manhood. Oh well, a losing battle, but I do what I can when confronted with a slab. I know where you're coming from Bill and I am a strong advocate AGAINST slabbing anything. In the case of the entombed patterns you see, I have left them as I purchased them more for protection than anything else. And trust me, the grade never came into play during the purchase thought process....in fact, the silver 1913 Bavarian patterns at the bottom I wasn't aware they were entombed until after I made the deal...I then insisted on getting the original box of issue from the seller too for storage once I free them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordie582 Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 A fantastic coin cabinet that will take a lifetime (& a fortune) to fill One unease. I thought pine wood was a no-no as far as coins & medals were concerned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted December 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 A fantastic coin cabinet that will take a lifetime (& a fortune) to fill One unease. I thought pine wood was a no-no as far as coins & medals were concerned? Yes, Geordie, expensive...but it IS half full already. Regarding wood and outgassing....he is the discussion from earlier in the thread regarding wood in this cabinet and it's age. RE: Wooden Cupboard of German Origin Measurements:Height: 76 3/4 inches Depth: 19 3/4 inches Width: 40 1/2 inches The wooden cupboard is in two pieces with 102 sliding trays; the lower case having two doors on a raised base and the upper case having two doors, with molded panels in a frame. The entire surface of the cupboard is a painted "Faux bois" finish with graining done in an imitation of highly figured walnut. This coating disguises the fact that both cabinets are constructed in pine wood and veneered with another wood. The applied moldings of the upper case are cherrywood. The construction techniques used in both cares are of traditional 18th century mortise and tenon technique with dovetail joinery. The lower case has nails that are late 18th or early 20th century manufactured and appears to be original to its construction. The upper case has wooden pegs used to hold boards in place. The sliding trays were used to contain bronze art medallions and plaster casts. The flat surface of all the trays had been covered with different fabrics to cushion the art work. The trays had the dirty fabric removed and then vacuumed.The fabric is to be returned to the owner. In my estimation, the upper case is of 18th century German origin and the lower case of late 19th century origin. These two cases were paired together at that time and given the faux bois graining in imitation of walnut. Treatment of the cupboard consisted of examination for structural integrity which is intact and damage to the finish. The finish has sustained numerous scratches and abrasions resulting in some loss to the paint coat. Also, the case was quite dirty. As a result, the cupboard was cleaned and touched up the paint losses only in the most glaring places with removable paints. The cupboard was subsequently waxed and polished before personal delivery to the owner. "Interestingly, what internal surface of boxes? A medal from being long time for this surface does not receive corrosion?" The drawers are made from quarter-sawn oak and framed in cherry. This wood is 100-225 years old...long past the time to worry about outgassing from the wood. When Goetz was using it he had the drawers lined in a beige velvet. Since it has been sitting in humid conditions since at least the mid-80's, the material has become filthy and musty. I am relining the drawers with archival, black velvet. All I can say is, if it was safe enough for the greatest medalist to ever live to store his medals and master models in then it's safe enough for my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Good idea with the black velvet. Classic like the Goetz's art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 what a great collection, you should send it on a museum tour, or numismatic show tour. I would love a chance to see them up close in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goetzdude Posted December 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 what a great collection, you should send it on a museum tour, or numismatic show tour. I would love a chance to see them up close in person. Only about 1/5 of the collection is shown. I am in negotiation with Maryhill Museum for a show in 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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