1830 12 rubles

[BKB]

[grivna1726]

 

Is it yours? Reportedly only 119 struck!

[BKB]

 

Is it yours? Reportedly only 119 struck!

 

 

I am a sucker for rarity. :-) Moreover, unlike most of the 1830 12 ruble pieces sold recently, this one matches the GM dies perfectly. I think I found the way to tell the original striking apart from the later-date and Soviet novodels. The eagle on the original is a bit larger and leaves no space between the wings and the edge.

[grivna1726]

I am a sucker for rarity. :-) Moreover, unlike most of the 1830 12 ruble pieces sold recently, this one matches the GM dies perfectly. I think I found the way to tell the original striking apart from the later-date and Soviet novodels. The eagle on the original is a bit larger and leaves no space between the wings and the edge.

 

If you are right about that (and I think you might be) then my 3 roubles coin dated 1828, seen HERE, is probably a novodel.

[BKB]

If you are right about that (and I think you might be) then my 3 roubles coin dated 1828, seen HERE, is probably a novodel.

 

I was only speaking of 1830 12 ruble coin. The GM specimen was sold by Christies in 1950. The plate is very good and allows for die comparison. No chance that Grand Duke had a Soviet made novodel. :-) Further, I read an article that sounded credible and which placed the production of proof novodels of 1830 12 ruble in the Soviet period. (Do not remember where I saw it or who wrote it -- I am looking for it now...) Anyway, there is way too many of 1830 12 ruble pieces in private hands for total production of 119. But, most of those that are sold, especially as proof striking, have a smaller eagle. I do not believe that an argument had ever been made that there were more than one die pair used in 1830 production of 12 ruble pieces. I will try to illustrate the difference today, but a good sample was sold at TRITON #IX. lot 211.

 

I know nothing about 3 ruble coins of the same year. But, you have a very beautiful coin. Could you please show the other side?

[grivna1726]

I was only speaking of 1830 12 ruble coin. The GM specimen was sold by Christies in 1950. The plate is very good and allows for die comparison. No chance that Grand Duke had a Soviet made novodel. :-) Further, I read an article that sounded credible and which placed the production of proof novodels of 1830 12 ruble in the Soviet period. (Do not remember where I saw it or who wrote it -- I am looking for it now...) Anyway, there is way too many of 1830 12 ruble pieces in private hands for total production of 119. But, most of those that are sold, especially as proof striking, have a smaller eagle. I do not believe that an argument had ever been made that there were more than one die pair used in 1830 production of 12 ruble pieces. I will try to illustrate the difference today, but a good sample was sold at TRITON #IX. lot 211.

 

I know nothing about 3 ruble coins of the same year. But, you have a very beautiful coin. Could you please show the other side?

 

I posted this coin here a long time ago, but cannot find the thread. But I found this scan of it on my hard drive with a file date of June 2006. The scanner was obviously in need of cleaning.

[BKB]

I posted this coin here a long time ago, but cannot find the thread. But I found this scan of it on my hard drive with a file date of June 2006. The scanner was obviously in need of cleaning.

 

Very very nice. I was offered a proof 1828 3r for $5000 last year. I did not bite. I guess I should have bought it.

[grivna1726]

I was offered a proof 1828 3r for $5000 last year. I did not bite. I guess I should have bought it.

The one that got away!

 

There are some I also regret not buying when I had the chance, thinking the price was "too high". They just went higher...

[BKB]

The one that got away!

 

There are some I also regret not buying when I had the chance, thinking the price was "too high". They just went higher...

 

It was not the price that I disliked, but the seller. I let personal feeling intervene in the hobby. I do no want any bad feelings associated with any coin in my collection.

[grivna1726]

It was not the price that I disliked, but the seller. I let personal feeling intervene in the hobby. I do no want any bad feelings associated with any coin in my collection.

Good point. Why buy from someone that you find disagreeable? It is better to deal with people you like and can trust. Building a personal relationship with a trusted dealer can be a very valuable asset to a collector (something which is unlikely to occur on an impersonal medium like ebay).

[RW Julian]

I was only speaking of 1830 12 ruble coin. The GM specimen was sold by Christies in 1950. The plate is very good and allows for die comparison. No chance that Grand Duke had a Soviet made novodel. :-) Further, I read an article that sounded credible and which placed the production of proof novodels of 1830 12 ruble in the Soviet period. (Do not remember where I saw it or who wrote it -- I am looking for it now...) Anyway, there is way too many of 1830 12 ruble pieces in private hands for total production of 119. But, most of those that are sold, especially as proof striking, have a smaller eagle. I do not believe that an argument had ever been made that there were more than one die pair used in 1830 production of 12 ruble pieces. I will try to illustrate the difference today, but a good sample was sold at TRITON #IX. lot 211.

With respect to the number of pieces in existence, it should be noted that proof coins were

not included with published mintages.

 

RWJ

[BKB]

With respect to the number of pieces in existence, it should be noted that proof coins were

not included with published mintages.

 

RWJ

 

RWJ, i do not have this information. Could you please provide the source? Thank you in advance.

[RW Julian]

RWJ, i do not have this information. Could you please provide the source? Thank you in advance.

The easiest place to see this is in the mint reports for Nicholas II. These are for fiscal years

but the 1901 25 kopecks is a good example. The official mint report says 12 struck and there

is no report for 1902. Far more than 12 are known and all were made for proof sets of that year.

The 1903 50 kopecks is a little more complicated but also an example of this.

 

The 12 examples noted for the 1901 25 kopecks were not for circulation; this was the number

on the official distribution list which included the Emperor, the Hermitage, and several museums.

Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich was probably on this list.

 

It needs to be noted that it was normal procedure for world mints not to report proof coinage

in the 19th century. The U.S. Mint at Philadelphia was an exception to this rule as it began to report

silver and gold proofs in 1860 and minor proofs in 1878.

 

RWJ

[BKB]

I understand your logic. Thank you.