bobh Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Looks like it to me, but hard to tell from the pictures: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=120226453816 If it is, whoever bought it got a good bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 You are correct, Bob, its a Pauls Overstrike. Even though there is no obvious hint of the Monogram 1796 10K it is struck upon, you can readily identify the Eagle, which is much different than the EM Eagle of 1788-1796. The other clue is that the style of the "3" in the date is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 I was looking at it when it was 30 dollars, but when it went up to 50 I gave up. It's not that nice both in terms of condition and the details of the undercoin. On the other hand a seller from BC put up a bunch of novodel wires in NGC holders for sale, I got 2 of them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 On the other hand a seller from BC put up a bunch of novodel wires in NGC holders for sale, I got 2 of them! Novodel wires? Can you post the pictures of them here? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Novodel wires? Can you post the pictures of them here? Thanks The seller posted nice pics. It is the same seller who was offering 2 of these several times for 900 US. I guess he gave up and sold for whatever. Here are the links: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025568342 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025567971 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025567127 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025566268 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025565809 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025568730 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Neat Novodels, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 I think you made a mistake. NGC, in this particular case, is not that you can trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Honestly, I had only found out that they made novodels of wire coins a few months ago, but these are consistent with the ones I've seen so far. This one was posted by Mr. Immortal on this forum: http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=18086 I've also seen a few on one of the auctions that were discussed on this forum earlier. The seller looks trustworthy, NGC did not reject them, although I have no idea how to evaluate them. It looks like R. Kaim is the only reference on the subject. Cheburgen, what troubles you in these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Unfortunately in this case NGS seems to be wrong. Some of the examples are obvious fakes. Privately made. It has nothing to do with the restrikes. Cheap fakes in the boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Unfortunately in this case NGS seems to be wrong. Some of the examples are obvious fakes. Privately made. It has nothing to do with the restrikes. Cheap fakes in the boxes. Really! That's not good news at all! How can you tell? Where could I find a list of the original Novodels? When you say restrikes, what do you mean? We had a discussion here in the past, a few months ago, and the learned opinion was that they would have cut new dies at the mint for the wire Novodels, so they can't be compared to the originals. So they would not really be restikes, but maybe I did not catch your meaning. Also, you and the seller are both from BC, have you ever had a chance to deal with the "numismatic-gallery". Seems to be a very professional dealer. On eBay since 2001 6514 positive and only 7 negative feedbacks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Really! That's not good news at all! How can you tell? Where could I find a list of the original Novodels? When you say restrikes, what do you mean? We had a discussion here in the past, a few months ago, and the learned opinion was that they would have cut new dies at the mint for the wire Novodels, so they can't be compared to the originals. So they would not really be restikes, but maybe I did not catch your meaning. Also, you and the seller are both from BC, have you ever had a chance to deal with the "numismatic-gallery". Seems to be a very professional dealer. On eBay since 2001 6514 positive and only 7 negative feedbacks! I do not want to badmouth anybody. As for russian coins - I've never seen anything but fakes from that dealer in the past. I'm talking about the coins I've happen to pay attention to... There are a lot of people in BC, Canada. Probably a lot of coin collectors too. Same in your city, isn't it? Since the russian mint NEVER produced new dies (prove me wrong!) for this things - they are simply fakes. They would not be novodels even if the new dies were produced! Novodels have to be minted with the OLD DIES. The things in the slabs are not novodels or restrikes but privately and poorely (in my opinion) made fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Novodels have to be minted with the OLD DIES. This is incorrect. Some novodels are made with original dies. Others are not. Refer to Brekke pp. 16-17 regarding the 4 classes of novodels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Correct enough for me for this case. I'm aware of the different definitions of novodels. Thank you for reminding. As I said - prove the russian mint made the new dies and call them whatever you want. It doesn't make them relevant to numizmatics anyway. O yes... the shape is round, the clown on the horse is look alike and they are made of metal. That's about it? Official fantasy may be? Anyway, it is not even the case here! I'm sorry Alexbq2. I don't want to be mean to you. I was watching that crap for sale by the "professionals" for month after month... Everywere... It was rejected by some auction flat out too... They just couldn't find an .... (no offence, please!). I would try to return it. To such "professioanals" it should not be a problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 Since the russian mint NEVER produced new dies (prove me wrong!) for this things - they are simply fakes. They would not be novodels even if the new dies were produced! Novodels have to be minted with the OLD DIES. The things in the slabs are not novodels or restrikes but privately and poorely (in my opinion) made fakes. I have only a handful of wire kopecks and none of them is a novodel. However, the St. Petersburg Mint did produce new dies for certain 17th century gold coins and the resulting pieces are considered novodels by all authorities. These gold novodels are collected by some specialists because the originals are virtually unobtainable. If new dies for gold were made, why not those for silver – or copper of the Revolt period? RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 As far as Novodels being only restrikes with old dies, it is simply not true. Try finding a 200 year old coin die, and using it. That is just impossible. As we all know the collectors from mid 1800's were eager to get some rare coins into their collections and if they could not find one they just payed the mint to make one. As far as I know there are a lot of fantasy coins among Novodels. I do collect wires, and realize perfectly well, that none of the coins listed even on major auctions as wire Novodels match anything that was produced in 15th to 17th century. Our collecting predecessors simply did not care about historical accuracy. As far as collecting Novodels it is a popular hobby, has nothing to do with actual history of coins that circulated in Russia (with the exception of coins struck with original dies of course). I have not seen any references that listed wire novodels. And when I saw 2 of these coins on eBay a few months ago, I raised this question on this very forum. I also asked the seller. I do not recall who (but someone with a lot more knowledge than I), had confirmed that the mint would certainly cut new dies for such requests. R. Kaim is rumored to have a few of them listed. I don't read German, so I do not own any R. Kaim publications. In Russia it seems that fantasy Novodels were dismissed by researchers since their historical relevance is very low. So we still have very little info on Novodels - at least I do not know many. Since I have nothing to compare these coins to, I will accept the NGC assessment. I do not know how they came to accept these coins in the first place but they are serious people, so I hope they've done their homework. If you know of some reference on these coins please let me know, I am very curious about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 Great! Have fun than. Still kind of curious, how do this items relate to the coin collecting hobby... One more thing. I've happened to know that this things were regected by 2 auctions as fakes DESPITE the NGS slabs. RWJ, as you said gold and silver novodels were made in 19-th century for the collectors and there are archive's records proving that. If I follow your logic correctly than any chineze fakes on the market can be justified - no record - means novodel and possibly minted? Besides the point that the above things have the historical value of the beer bottle cups in plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 Great! Have fun than. Still kind of curious, how do this items relate to the coin collecting hobby... Not sure what you mean. Obviously, if they were made for 19th century collectors they have everything to do with the hobby - not the study of Numismatics. BTW I recalled where I've seen more of these. It was on the WAG auction. Seems reputable! Here are some relevant pictures: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 one more: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 So they look just like the once sold on eBay. More than that I do not know. Since I have no other reference I'll have to trust NGC and WAG. Once again, if anyone has any info on this kind of coins - do let me know. PS: Bobh, I apologies for hijacking your thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 My apologies too. I would rather disscuss numizmatic items in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 So they look just like the once sold on eBay. More than that I do not know. Since I have no other reference I'll have to trust NGC and WAG. Once again, if anyone has any info on this kind of coins - do let me know. PS: Bobh, I apologies for hijacking your thread Not a problem ... I learned a good deal from the discussion! Thanks for posting the links to the pictures, everyone. As to WAG auctions, I remember on one occasion that there was an older rouble offered which someone on this forum identified as fake. However, it was withdrawn before the auction began, IIRC. As to the never-ending novodel discussion, I think they do occupy their place in numismatic history -- of course, as a category separate from the regular strikes. As long as there are collectors interested in them, they will be collected. And there's really not much anyone who thinks otherwise can do about it, is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 Sure, bobh. It's a matter of definitions. Some people collect beer bottle caps. Some coins... This is NUMISMATIC forum, isn't it? Incapsulated crap unrelated to coins should be discussed somewere else... That's what can be done! Don't you think at least the topics on this forum should be relevant to coins? Please get me right. I do not oppose collecting stamps or chewing gum wrappers... Certified comics or whatever. O yes. This is NOT a novodel discussion. It was an encapsulated fakes discussion to start with. Good example with WAG by the way... Just another example of "professionals". Speaking of garbage they put on sale in the past. E-bay are angels compare to them... And the words "trust" and WAG are used in one sentence? Pitiful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 Sure, bobh. It's a matter of definitions. Some people collect beer bottle caps. Some coins... This is NUMISMATIC forum, isn't it? Incapsulated crap unrelated to coins should be discussed somewere else... That's what can be done! Don't you think at least the topics on this forum should be relevant to coins? Please get me right. I do not oppose collecting stamps or chewing gum wrappers... Certified comics or whatever. During the Civil War in the USA, there was a shortage of copper coins. Everybody hoarded the existing regular strikes, and few were minted. So people started minting their own "coins" which we now know as "Civil War Tokens" (CWT). They were used in paying for everyday goods. Also, there are "Hard Times Tokens" from 1837 which are larger, as were the large cents back then. I never heard of any coin collectors putting down token collectors just because they aren't coins, and they are regularly slabbed by leading grading companies. They quite rightly qualify as numismatic discussion material, as do the Russian novodels (the "genuine" novodels, at least). Most collectors of U.S. copper coins will probably also have some CWT's in their collection. Some people specialize in CWT's and HTT's. Now if we have enough people here who are only interested in collecting novodels, we could start a new sub-forum for that. Of course, they are going to scream bloody murder if anyone dares to discuss coins over there! O yes. This is NOT a novodel discussion. It was an encapsulated fakes discussion to start with. Well, actually I started this thread with a question about Paul's overstriking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 During the Civil War in the USA, there was a shortage of copper coins. Everybody hoarded the existing regular strikes, and few were minted. So people started minting their own "coins" which we now know as "Civil War Tokens" (CWT). They were used in paying for everyday goods. Also, there are "Hard Times Tokens" from 1837 which are larger, as were the large cents back then. I never heard of any coin collectors putting down token collectors just because they aren't coins, and they are regularly slabbed by leading grading companies. They quite rightly qualify as numismatic discussion material, as do the Russian novodels (the "genuine" novodels, at least). Most collectors of U.S. copper coins will probably also have some CWT's in their collection. Some people specialize in CWT's and HTT's. Now if we have enough people here who are only interested in collecting novodels, we could start a new sub-forum for that. Of course, they are going to scream bloody murder if anyone dares to discuss coins over there! Well, actually I started this thread with a question about Paul's overstriking. If we ask collectors of US coins, I think we would find that very few of them would not want to have an 1804 Dollar and many would consider such a coin the finest thing in their collection. The 1804 dollar, of course, is an American novodel. There are no original 1804 US dollars. They were actually made, if memory is correct, from newly fabricated dies sometime during the 1830s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/poplookup...+Matching+Coins Above the link how many so-called "novodels" are graded. IMHO again, these are not novodels. Most of novodels are coming from reputable collections and usually they are quite expensive. Like it was with collection of Gutten-Chapskiy (not sure if the name is correct in English). The dies of course could be made but I do not think that anybody could prove that these novodels are really novodels. It will be necessary at least to show the presence of such novodels in a very well known and very old collections. I can try to do a little research and ask some guys in Russia who are dealing with wires but I think they are all the time on Ebay anyway and if they were beleiving that these are novodels they could not miss such chance even for $900. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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