GOETZ: K 65 Van Wien Birthmedal

[Drusus]

while I have nothing to add...I just wanted to say great thread and medal...thanks to Goetzdude I have gain a real appreciation of Karl Goetz (and medals in general).

[Goetzdude]

And that is pretty incomplete when you consider all the places they could have came in, for instance Miami was a destination back then also, and featured prominently in the infamous SS St. Louis episode in 1939.

 

 

I am ashamed to admit that I had never heard this story before. A quick synopsis can be found here.

 

I have to question the 'children' traveling with their mother unless they were escorting her. Both in their late 20's, and Johanna married, it would seem to me that they would be worried about their own new families and relationships too.

 

PS. Thanks Drusus...every medal has a story and that is why they are so fascinating. You'll learn something new every day if you collect them. We are so lucky to be living in the information age of the internet too.

[research5]

I have heard about the SS St. Louis, but I did not know the name of the ship.

This of course was used by the nazis for their propaganda to convince simple minded people, that what they are doing is right.

Anti-Semitism is a long story and sometimes supported by the Christian church.

After the WW II the catholic church helped Christian people to emigrate to South America, not asking whether they were nazis or not. But no Jew was supported at that time.

The conflict between the Christian church and the Jewish church is based on the fact that the Jews have murdered Jesus Christ.

 

Still today in Germany the Christian church maintains their privilege that together with the tax the "church tax" is automatically collected by the Government based on the concordat signed by Pius XII and the nazis.

 

But back to the family van Wien. I am going to Munich mid of August.

There are several points in Munich where I am going to investigate on the van Wien family. I hope to bring more details in the coming weeks.

[Goetzdude]

I have heard about the SS St. Louis, but I did not know the name of the ship.

This of course was used by the nazis for their propaganda to convince simple minded people, that what they are doing is right.

Anti-Semitism is a long story and sometimes supported by the Christian church.

After the WW II the catholic church helped Christian people to emigrate to South America, not asking whether they were nazis or not. But no Jew was supported at that time.

The conflict between the Christian church and the Jewish church is based on the fact that the Jews have murdered Jesus Christ.

 

Still today in Germany the Christian church maintains their privilege that together with the tax the "church tax" is automatically collected by the Government based on the concordat signed by Pius XII and the nazis.

 

But back to the family van Wien. I am going to Munich mid of August.

There are several points in Munich where I am going to investigate on the van Wien family. I hope to bring more details in the coming weeks.

 

Good luck in Munich Research5! I wish I was visiting there...I'd love to see Goetz' old house, Goetz' grave, the Bayerisches National Museum, and several dealer friends near by. I am hoping to make it back over again soon...it's been three years since my last visit to Germany!

 

We'll await word from you Research%

[tabbs]

Still today in Germany the Christian church maintains their privilege that together with the tax the "church tax" is automatically collected by the Government based on the concordat signed by Pius XII and the nazis.

Actually the government does that for every religious community that is a public law organization (Körperschaft des öffentlichen Rechts) and wants the government to collect it: the Roman Catholic Church, various Lutheran (evangelisch) and other Christian churches, but also Jewish communities. That tax system is a little odd indeed, but then again in other countries you can get married (with all the civil law impacts) by a priest, which I think is about as strange.

 

(Slightly OT but I guess that in this thread that does not matter much any more. )

 

Christian

[Scottishmoney]

Actually the government does that for every religious community that is a public law organization (Körperschaft des öffentlichen Rechts) and wants the government to collect it: the Roman Catholic Church, various Lutheran (evangelisch) and other Christian churches, but also Jewish communities. That tax system is a little odd indeed, but then again in other countries you can get married (with all the civil law impacts) by a priest, which I think is about as strange.

 

(Slightly OT but I guess that in this thread that does not matter much any more. )

 

Christian

 

 

There was a news item a couple of weeks ago about the German Government stopping Tom Cruise from filming because he is a member of a non-sanctioned religion, in this case, Scientology. But maybe the real reason was less his Scientology beliefs, and more his weirdness in general, you know, couch jumping, weird things said etc.

[tabbs]

There was a news item a couple of weeks ago about the German Government stopping Tom Cruise from filming because he is a member of a non-sanctioned religion, in this case, Scientology. But maybe the real reason was less his Scientology beliefs, and more his weirdness in general, you know, couch jumping, weird things said etc.

No, his being somewhat odd was not the primary problem. Scientology was the problem. If you make a movie like Valkyrie, primarily about Stauffenberg, it does seem kind of strange that, of all actors in the (English) world, a leading member of such an organization plays somebody who wanted to do away with a totalitarian regime.

 

That is also what Stauffenberg's son has said various times. And that is why some people in the government don't think it's a good idea that original locations such as the Bendlerblock should be used. But such locations have been used for various German/European movies about Stauffenberg, and frankly, I don't see why they should not shoot some scenes with that weird guy there.

 

Don't know who claims that the German Government stops anybody from making the movie, but that is a pretty obvious lie. After all, the German Government sponsors the movie - they get almost €5 million from the Filmförderfonds. That is almost 10 percent of the FFF's annual budget. But maybe such "minor details" are not that well known elsewhere.

 

Christian

[Goetzdude]

Scottishmoney....have you had the chance to dig into the immigration sites/locations for additional information regarding Johanna van Wien?

 

(it's raining here today which has allowed me a free day form my exterior house painting project )

[research5]

Hi friends of Goetz medadals,

 

Due to the bad wheather and that the Munich town archive is closed until mid of October 2007, I have not been in Munich as planned beginning of August.

But I am planning already a business trip to Munich, after the town archive has been reopened mid of october 2007.

 

Has anybody been successful in finding US relatives of Johanna van Wien??

[Scottishmoney]

Has anybody been successful in finding US relatives of Johanna van Wien??

 

 

I am going to try doing some research in some online sites here in the USA, Goetzdude has also contacted me about this. I will have to put together a plan and start doing the research so that hopefully I can find the informations we would like to find.

[research5]

Hello friends of the medals of Karl Goetz,

 

some time ago we discussed the birth medals of Johanna van Wien and her brother Bertram.

I have in the meantime published their story in the German coin journal "Muenzen und Sammeln".

The pdf document can be found here:

 

http://www.kunstmedaillen.net/Denkmal.pdf

 

The publication is still in German, but I am planning to produce an English version.

Nevertheless I would like to distribute the information already now.

 

Kind regards

 

RESEARCH5

Kunstmedaillen.net

[Goetzdude]

Welcome back Research5 !!

 

It appears you have done a fine job on the Van Wien birth medal article. Unfortunately I will need to wait for the English version before I can absorb more of the content. I am hoping that someone will contact you after seeing the article to tell you something more about the family and what happened to them.

 

As I keep hounding over on another forum, this is exactly what collecting is all about...or should be, and I love how one fact leads you to a new path of research much like a scavanger hunt....the prize being the knowledge that we gain.

 

Please post more often Research5, you have been missed.

[Goetzdude]

I noticed that the link to the medal image was toast so I have relinked the image in the first post and this one. Enjoy

 

 

[research5]

Dear friends of Goetz medals and the family van Wien,

 

I have after two years extremely good news on the story of the van Wien family. With the help of an expert I have received the information that Mathilde van Wien together with her son Stephan has been registered on the passenger list of Statendam to New York on 31st Oct. 1939. The information was available on ancestry.de. The Statendam which has been used by the van Wien family is the third Dutch ship with the name Statendam, which started operation in 1929.

A list of ships of the Dutch-America-Line is available on: http://www.kalkriese.de/Holland-America_Line.html

Further information on their future in the US is still under investigation. But I hope I can contact grandchildren of Stephan and that they are willing to tell us more about their grandparents and relatives.

Can someone of you check the passenger lists of Statendam, when it arrived in New York? Has also Johanna van Wien been onboard of that ship?

Has Dr. Kurt Willi Bauer immigrated to the US? I have found someone with the name Kurt W Bauer in list of recruited US soldiers for WW II in Passaic, New Jersey.

Furthermore a Kurt Bauer is on the passenger lists of New York.

Kurt Willi Bauer, the husband of Johanna van Wien, was born 20 July 1908 in Stuttgart-Canstatt.

Can someone check ancestry.com on these points? I have only access to ancestry.de, which shows not all details.

[Goetzdude]

Research 5, Thank you so much for the added information!!! So it is likely that Johnna arrived in the U.S., very good news indeed.

 

 

Unfortunately I do not have a membership with ancestory.com and it is unlikely I will since I would use it very little. I am hoping that Scottishmoney will pop in with his help very soon.

 

You live up to your name, that's for sure...

 

Also, How odd that your post was made seventy years to the day of the passenger list's date.

[banivechi]

Also, How odd that your post was made eighty years to the day of the passenger list's date.

Oh, not 70?

[Goetzdude]

Oh, not 70?

 

[hiho]

I noticed that the link to the medal image was toast so I have relinked the image in the first post and this one. Enjoy

 

 

 

My first son was born on April 3rd. That was the day I stopped being a boy and became a man.

 

Beautiful medal and a very interesting thread.

[research5]

Dear friends of Goetz medals and of the family van Wien,

 

I have very good news from Lyra (Van Wien) Hekmatpanah, the daughter of Stefan van Wien. I have contacted her husband Javad Hekmatpanah, who is professor at the Chicago medical center:

http://www.uchospitals.edu/physicians/java...kmat-panah.html

 

Mrs. van Wien informed me about her family as follows:

 

We were really amazed to receive your letter. You know a lot about our family! I'm sure there must have been a medal to honour the birth of my father, Stefan Van Wien, but I have no idea where that medal would be. But here are a few corrections.

 

My father, Stefan Van Wien, always spelled his name like that (never Stephan van Wien). My parents, Stefan and Marianne Van Wien, came to the United States alone (in 1934 or 1935)--that was their "honeymoon." My father's mother, Mathilde Van Wien, came alone to the U.S. in 1939. She died in 1945. My father died June 21,1962. My mother died in July 2005.

 

Johanna did marry (for her first marriage) Willi Bauer and they went to China. They subsequently divorced and my aunt Johanna then went to Australia (married a second time). She didn't come to the U.S. until about 1953 or 1954. She married a third time, never had children, and lived first in California and then Arizona. Johanna died too now (but I don't know the exact date).

 

I have a photograph showing me, aged about one year, sitting on my grandfather Ferdinand's lap. Thus he must have visited my parents in 1936. My grandfather returned to Germany. Apparently the Gestapo came to his home, looking for him. He wasn't at home. He felt that he had always been a good German, had done nothing wrong, and went to the police station. He had diabetes, and my understanding is that they simply didn't give him insulin, and that caused his death.

 

What a fate of the van Wien family. And what the medal of Karl Goetz has achieved nearly 100 years after it was made. The medal is a real memorial of the van Wien family.

I believe the answer of Mrs. Hekmatpanah is a real Christmas present for all of us, as it confirms that her Grandmother and her parents and her aunt have really reached foreign countries and escaped fascism.

 

Merry Christmas and a happy New Year.

[Goetzdude]

Yes, very good news indeed! Boy, we would have had a serious problem trying to find out information about her Aunt Johanna, eh? China, Australia, California, and Arizona? Just like a movie it seems.

 

I will make sure that I include all the information when I create the HTML page for K-65 on my web site. This has got to be interesting to the casual reader of what history can unfold by collecting medals.

 

Thank you again Research5......and good work!

 

S

[research5]

Goetzdude,

 

do you have any idea on a birth medal on Stefan (Stephan) van Wien?

I have checked the Kienast, but I have not found anything.

But it could be that any other Munich artist has produced this medal.

Let us try to find out, whether there is another medal on the van Wien children.

I have already checked the work of Dasio and the publication of Heidemann (DGMK Vol 8, 1998, Medaillenkunst in Deutschland von 1895 bis 1914 (Art medals in Germany from 1895 to 1914)) with about 1300 medals from that time.

I have found nothing, but I will contact different museums on that.

[Goetzdude]

Goetzdude,

 

do you have any idea on a birth medal on Stefan (Stephan) van Wien?

I have checked the Kienast, but I have not found anything.

But it could be that any other Munich artist has produced this medal.

Let us try to find out, whether there is another medal on the van Wien children.

I have already checked the work of Dasio and the publication of Heidemann (DGMK Vol 8, 1998, Medaillenkunst in Deutschland von 1895 bis 1914 (Art medals in Germany from 1895 to 1914)) with about 1300 medals from that time.

I have found nothing, but I will contact different museums on that.

 

 

No, I am not aware of any birth medal for Stefan. It's always possible that Goetz made one or two and they somehow were not recorded along with his other works, or, if Goetz was involved, perhaps the family may have bought a stock birth medal for engraving.

 

You've saved me from digging through my Heidemann and Dasio books but I can still look through Hörnlein's and Schwegerle's for information. I don't think it is likely I'll find anything but it'll be fun to go through the books anyway...it's been a while.

[Goetzdude]

 

Gee, only thirteen years since this thread began? 😉  Well, collecting Goetz rarities can take some time.  I just picked this Goetz birth medal up from a German auction.  A companion piece with Bertrand's sister's birth medal of 1910 and the original topic of this thread.  

 

K- 64

BERTRAND VAN WEIN BIRTH MEDAL
1912 Cast Bronze, Commemorative Medal, 50.0mm, 48.4g., Rim-punched; K•GœTz
 

Obverse:  BERTRAND • VAN • WIEN • GEBOREN • AM 5 • JULI / 1912 (Bertrand van Wien, born July 5th, 1912).

Reverse:  ALLEN • DREIEN • GLÜCKLICH • GEDEIHEN (To all three happy prosperity).

The letters S, J and B on the reverse are the initials of the first names of the van Wien children.

Goetz was commissioned by the Dutch Van Wien family to commemorate their son's birth on July 12, 1912.

[Samuel]

I also visited the two karlgoetz websites many times.

I have a couple of questions:

1. Can you say something about the rim-punch? all medals were rim-punched?

2. Are there any re-strike on recoprd? I saw at one dealer a medal says it is later re-cast.