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1706 Ducat on eBay


RW Julian

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As to TPGs "authenticating" as part of the grading: Yes and NO. The TPGs are generally American companies and as such are mostly familiar with US coinage. They may or may not spot a counterfeit in foreign coin. I would not take a TPG graded coin as authentic simply because it is slabbed. In fact, I don't take many US coins as authentic simply because they are slabbed - one should be very careful with $10 and 20 US as I have seen "Omega" counterfeits slabbed as real. I think it is important to realize that the TPGs are operated as private businesses who are essentially in the business of providing "marketing value" to the coin industry. They are not "market regulators" like some coin version of the SEC. They are offering an "opinon" that may be correct or incorrect. And, that opinion changes with the market; hence the changing grading and "market acceptable toning" and other euphamisms. Cavet Emptor, you're not buying what you apparently think you are.

 

Thank you. That is essentially what I was trying to say, but obviously failed to clearly communicate. :ninja:

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WCO,

 

Apparently you did not understand that what I posted is an American idiom about doing business in captial markets. This axiom says that if you see someone taking less than market value for an item, that person is either a fool or a thief. In the case of the 1706 ducat, IMHO there seems something terribly wrong here as the seller does seem to know the market value adn thus all can make their own conclusions.

 

As to reputable firms offering 1/10 "real value", they may or may not be reputable by offering such. In capital markets money has a "time value". If I can sell an item quickly, the item has a higher value to me and I will take less markup than an item that takes months or years to sell. So, if I offer 1/10 for an item that I know I can sell within a few days, I am being less than ethical. However, if I offer 1/10 because I know the item is thinly traded or so common that I will have to wait a good time for a buyer, then 1/10 is a reasonable price. Putting this in coin terms, I would happily pay 75% of retail for a rare coin such as a US 1793 Chain Cent, but I would only pay 10%, and possibly less, for a common Lincoln cent from the 1930s.

 

As to TPGs "authenticating" as part of the grading: Yes and NO. The TPGs are generally American companies and as such are mostly familiar with US coinage. They may or may not spot a counterfeit in foreign coin. I would not take a TPG graded coin as authentic simply because it is slabbed. In fact, I don't take many US coins as authentic simply because they are slabbed - one should be very careful with $10 and 20 US as I have seen "Omega" counterfeits slabbed as real. I think it is important to realize that the TPGs are operated as private businesses who are essentially in the business of providing "marketing value" to the coin industry. They are not "market regulators" like some coin version of the SEC. They are offering an "opinon" that may be correct or incorrect. And, that opinion changes with the market; hence the changing grading and "market acceptable toning" and other euphamisms. Cavet Emptor, you're not buying what you apparently think you are.

 

 

Oh, that was an idiom. Sorry, I did not understand it. :ninja: There is similar yet different idiom in Russia. Something like (if translated from Russian) "when two people make a deal one is a thief and another is a fool". So you are saying that Polish guy is a thief and he is looking for fools to buy his coin. May be this is true, but I do not know.

 

TPG's are American companies, and graded millions of US coins and therefore have enormous experience in grading of US coins but very limited in grading of world (and Russian) coins. Truth is Yes and NO. Most people very distant from this business (mostly collectors) repeat this statement above without thinking a bit. Consider this. Companies do not have experience, people do. Graders either have experience in authenticating and grading of coins or they don't. If you think that personal experience rises with number of coins authenticated and graded by a particular grader, then would not be surprising for you that average grader in US coins handled about the same number of US coins as world coin grader handled world coins. Their experiences are about the same therefore. Now myth about inability of TPG's authenticate and grade Russian coins. NGC alone authenticated/graded close to 100,000 Russian coins! Do you know how many Russian coins was authenticated in Russian State Historical Museum (biggest authenticator of Russian coins in Russia)? Incomparably lower number. In addition to that, NGC uses independent experts when necessary, foremost authorities on Russian coins outside of Russia! Probability that TPG's spot a fake in world coinage is about the same that they spot a fake in US coins, no difference.

 

WCO

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By the way there is only 1 example of 1706 Chervonec struck in gold from clollection of Biron and it is in Vienna museum.

Единственный экземпляр червонца 1706 г. отчеканенный в золоте из коллекции Бирона находится в Венском музее.

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By the way there is only 1 example of 1706 Chervonec struck in gold from clollection of Biron and it is in Vienna museum.

Единственный экземпляр червонца 1706 г. отчеканенный в золоте из коллекции Бирона находится в Венском музее.

 

that is what I said in november

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http://cgi.ebay.com/Extremaly-Rare-PETER-I...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

The above coin has a number of curious details connected with it:

1. The names of the bidders are hidden (i.e. a private sale).

2. The seller has somewhat dubious feedback with 63 reports from sellers and only 1 from a buyer. Some of the comments are less than polite about the honesty of the present seller.

3. The coin is graded by the "best European grading company." The initials ECC and GCN both appear. Does anyone know anything about this grading firm?

4. The statement is made that an XF specimen in Giessener Münzhandlung 157 (Gorny & Mosch) brought 26,000 euros. My copy of that catalogue does not have this coin.

RWJ

The coin did not sell in the above offering and has been relisted. After 4 bids the amount is now at $3.75, perhaps not far from its true worth. The estimated value, according to the seller, is $40,000 but the claim of being similar to a recent Gorny 157 specimen has been dropped.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Extremaly-Rare-PETER-I...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

RWJ

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BKB, I doubt that ebay have the proper numismatics experts to tell if it's a genuine or not since this is a much tough coin compared to some cheap copy. They might if they get a fair amount of complains - maybe we should all complain at once ;)

 

Well wait a second, you still DO see cheap copies still on ebay. :ninja:

 

 

I am not worried about cheap copies. It is the expensive ones that are dangerous. Well, no matter. I reported it. I hope you will do the same.

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That is good news! :ninja:

 

I'm surprised by this sudden willingness to remove listings of fakes.

 

What has changed? ;)

 

I read in a statement by uk eBay recently that they were cracking down on the sales of fake goods on eBay. It has been a haven for fake sellers. I presumed that they meant designer handbags etc., but hopefully they will take the same line on people selling fake coins.

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I read in a statement by uk eBay recently that they were cracking down on the sales of fake goods on eBay. It has been a haven for fake sellers. I presumed that they meant designer handbags etc., but hopefully they will take the same line on people selling fake coins.

 

 

Thank you for this information.

 

Without seeming to look a gift horse in the mouth, I just wonder what has prompted this sudden interest in "cracking down on the sales of fake goods on eBay".

 

It might be a sudden altruistic impulse, but my more cynical side suggests that maybe profits are in danger of being negatively affected.

 

A class action lawsuit from victims of past scams? Or maybe some long overdue interest has been aroused in such matters by regulatory bodies into what might possibly be activity by organized crime rings? Or some other reason?

 

I might be wrong, but my instinct tells me that there is more going on here than is immediately obvious to the casual observer.

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Thank you for this information.

 

Without seeming to look a gift horse in the mouth, I just wonder what has prompted this sudden interest in "cracking down on the sales of fake goods on eBay".

 

It might be a sudden altruistic impulse, but my more cynical side suggests that maybe profits are in danger of being negatively affected.

 

A class action lawsuit from victims of past scams? Or maybe some long overdue interest has been aroused in such matters by regulatory bodies into what might possibly be activity by organized crime rings? Or some other reason?

 

I might be wrong, but my instinct tells me that there is more going on here than is immediately obvious to the casual observer.

 

I would imagine probably all of the above. I don't believe there are coin experts or numismatists working for eBay. and They won’t know real coins from fake, but if a few people inform them that a coin is fake they will do something or be seen to be doing something about it now.

I believe your instinct could be correct Grivna.

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I would imagine probably all of the above. I don't believe there are coin experts or numismatists working for eBay. and They won’t know real coins from fake, but if a few people inform them that a coin is fake they will do something or be seen to be doing something about it now.

I believe your instinct could be correct Grivna.

An even bigger surprise: the seller has been booted off eBay!

 

RWJ

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That is good news! :ninja:

 

I'm surprised by this sudden willingness to remove listings of fakes.

 

What has changed? ;)

 

I will take the credit for that ;)

 

I spent about an hour today with a live person from eBay reporting and explaining why it was a fake, and why the seller knew it was a fake. I think it worked. ;)

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Bravo! :ninja:;)

 

The problem is that I really hate wasting time like that. Ebay should do away with private listings alltogether. Then you could warn the bidders, which is quick and effective.

 

Moreover, a person paying over $1,000 for a coin should buy a standard catalog first. Then, he or she should do some research. I do not think that a person who bid $4499 on that fake did that. The only excuse for that is the fact that due to the effort of WCO's of this world a slab is perceived as a magic wand that turns any crap into a genuine coin described thereon. And, which is in the exact condition listed on that slab.

 

To tell you the truth, slab was the reason why I wasted my time on helping someone who does not want to help himself.

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  • 3 years later...

So passed. In Russia this coin did not recognize the true, because she's come across once. It is this stamp. Below is a link to the second instance, lit in Russia:

http://www.wolmar.ru/auction/224/134864?PH...cis0c12nicdm1j0

 

Yes, the coin is made of the same metal as the other gold coins. But such a stamp is nowhere described. It differs from the coins from the collection of the Vienna Museum.

Oddly enough, it recognized the forgery of information from the U.S.. Some numismatists and experts have convinced our experts that this stamp forgery.

In fact, try to prove the authenticity of the coin, if it shiempel not described. In Russia it is not certain.

 

--------------- http://translate.google.ru/ ---------------

 

Так, проходил мимо. В России эту монету не признали подлинной, потому что она там попадалась один раз. Именно этот штемпель. Ниже приводится ссылка на второй экземпляр, засветившийся в России:

http://www.wolmar.ru/auction/224/134864?PH...cis0c12nicdm1j0

 

Да, монета сделана из такого же металла, как и другие червонцы. Но такой штемпель нигде не описан. Он отличается от монеты из собрания венского музея.

Как ни странно, её признали подделкой по информации из США. Какие-то нумизматы или эксперты убедили наших экспертов, что этот штемпель подделка.

Вообще-то, попробуте доказать подлинность монеты, если её шиемпель не описан. В России это не получиться.

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So passed. In Russia this coin did not recognize the true, because she's come across once. It is this stamp. Below is a link to the second instance, lit in Russia:

http://www.wolmar.ru/auction/224/134864?PH...cis0c12nicdm1j0

 

Yes, the coin is made of the same metal as the other gold coins. But such a stamp is nowhere described. It differs from the coins from the collection of the Vienna Museum.

Oddly enough, it recognized the forgery of information from the U.S.. Some numismatists and experts have convinced our experts that this stamp forgery.

In fact, try to prove the authenticity of the coin, if it shiempel not described. In Russia it is not certain.

 

--------------- http://translate.google.ru/ ---------------

 

Так, проходил мимо. В России эту монету не признали подлинной, потому что она там попадалась один раз. Именно этот штемпель. Ниже приводится ссылка на второй экземпляр, засветившийся в России:

http://www.wolmar.ru/auction/224/134864?PH...cis0c12nicdm1j0

 

Да, монета сделана из такого же металла, как и другие червонцы. Но такой штемпель нигде не описан. Он отличается от монеты из собрания венского музея.

Как ни странно, её признали подделкой по информации из США. Какие-то нумизматы или эксперты убедили наших экспертов, что этот штемпель подделка.

Вообще-то, попробуте доказать подлинность монеты, если её шиемпель не описан. В России это не получиться.

 

Welcome to coinpeople Sergio,

at Wolmar this coin listed as a copy :ninja:

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So passed. In Russia this coin did not recognize the true, because she's come across once. It is this stamp. Below is a link to the second instance, lit in Russia:

http://www.wolmar.ru/auction/224/134864?PH...cis0c12nicdm1j0

 

Yes, the coin is made of the same metal as the other gold coins. But such a stamp is nowhere described. It differs from the coins from the collection of the Vienna Museum.

Oddly enough, it recognized the forgery of information from the U.S.. Some numismatists and experts have convinced our experts that this stamp forgery.

In fact, try to prove the authenticity of the coin, if it shiempel not described. In Russia it is not certain.

 

--------------- http://translate.google.ru/ ---------------

 

Так, проходил мимо. В России эту монету не признали подлинной, потому что она там попадалась один раз. Именно этот штемпель. Ниже приводится ссылка на второй экземпляр, засветившийся в России:

http://www.wolmar.ru/auction/224/134864?PH...cis0c12nicdm1j0

 

Да, монета сделана из такого же металла, как и другие червонцы. Но такой штемпель нигде не описан. Он отличается от монеты из собрания венского музея.

Как ни странно, её признали подделкой по информации из США. Какие-то нумизматы или эксперты убедили наших экспертов, что этот штемпель подделка.

Вообще-то, попробуте доказать подлинность монеты, если её шиемпель не описан. В России это не получиться.

 

Hello Sergio,

 

 

 

Welcome to this forum.

 

Thank you for the link to this coin, which is believed to be false by many informed collectors.

 

=====================

English to Russian translation by computer:

Английского на русский язык с помощью компьютера:

 

 

Здравствуйте, Sergio,

 

 

 

Добро пожаловать на этом форуме.

 

Спасибо за ссылку на эту монету, которая считается ложным многие сообщил коллекционеров.

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