1706 Ducat on eBay

[RW Julian]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Extremaly-Rare-PETER-I...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

The above coin has a number of curious details connected with it:

 

1. The names of the bidders are hidden (i.e. a private sale).

 

2. The seller has somewhat dubious feedback with 63 reports from sellers and only 1 from a buyer. Some of the comments are less than polite about the honesty of the present seller.

 

3. The coin is graded by the "best European grading company." The initials ECC and GCN both appear. Does anyone know anything about this grading firm?

 

4. The statement is made that an XF specimen in Giessener Münzhandlung 157 (Gorny & Mosch) brought 26,000 euros. My copy of that catalogue does not have this coin.

 

RWJ

[gxseries]

Julian, if I am not mistaken, ebay has recently implented some ridicious policy that whenever an item hits over 200USD, all bidders' identity will be hidden. Bad policy I think.

 

With such a low feedback, I too wouldn't bother. By looking at his feedback, his recent buys are very cheap compared to what he is selling.

 

The slab is indeed a worry. Perhaps Cameron or Micheal (conder101) would know something about this company but again, I avoid slabs. Contact details can be found here: http://www.sampleslabs.com/slabbook.html

 

Now number 4 IS scary!

[kisenish]

it's funny coin, guys! it doesn't matter for me whether it's slabbed or not, it doesn't look genuine at all

[RW Julian]

it's funny coin, guys! it doesn't matter for me whether it's slabbed or not, it doesn't look genuine at all

It gets better. The grading firm produces slabbed coins for whatever market the coin owner desires. Here the grade is AU50, which is a U.S. grade. Their website shows coins on the Polish system, etc. The question arises as to why a seller in Poland had a coin graded by U.S. standards; if the piece is genuine, which is very doubtful, he could easily have sold it in one of the major Russian auctions.

 

If you wish to return the coin, the rules are equally strange:

 

As an auction all sales are final, although we do offer, in compliance with distance trading standards, a seven-day returns policy. A refund of the purchase price only net of postage costs will be made for anyone returning items. No returns will be accepted without prior approval and agreement.

 

In other words, if the seller does not want you to return the coin, you can’t.

 

RWJ

[BKB]

I believe that we discussed a similar fake, if not identical, in early November:

 

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showto...7&hl=unique

 

Not much to add, except, it would be interesting to find out about that grading company. I wonder if it even exists; and, if it does, whether it is a fake slab.

[RW Julian]

I believe that we discussed a similar fake, if not identical, in early November:

 

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showto...7&hl=unique

 

Not much to add, except, it would be interesting to find out about that grading company. I wonder if it even exists; and, if it does, whether it is a fake slab.

I sent a message to the seller pointing out that there is no 1706 ducat in the Gorny 157 sale. His response:

 

Look at position 4042 in Gorny catalogue - it's the same type but a little different variable (in catalogue with date 1712 - valued by Gorny at 40 000 EUR). My coin is more scarcer type without date struck in 1706 and in better condition.

 

His auction for the 1706 piece, on the other hand, says the following:

 

Similar coin in XF condition was sold for 26 000 EUR at 157th Gorny&Mosch auction(march 2007)

 

RWJ

[BKB]

I sent a message to the seller pointing out that there is no 1706 ducat in the Gorny 157 sale. His response:

 

Look at position 4042 in Gorny catalogue - it's the same type but a little different variable (in catalogue with date 1712 - valued by Gorny at 40 000 EUR). My coin is more scarcer type without date struck in 1706 and in better condition.

 

His auction for the 1706 piece, on the other hand, says the following:

 

Similar coin in XF condition was sold for 26 000 EUR at 157th Gorny&Mosch auction(march 2007)

 

RWJ

 

Do you think this guy does not know what he is selling?

[grivna1726]

I sent a message to the seller pointing out that there is no 1706 ducat in the Gorny 157 sale. His response:

 

Look at position 4042 in Gorny catalogue - it's the same type but a little different variable (in catalogue with date 1712 - valued by Gorny at 40 000 EUR). My coin is more scarcer type without date struck in 1706 and in better condition.

 

His auction for the 1706 piece, on the other hand, says the following:

 

Similar coin in XF condition was sold for 26 000 EUR at 157th Gorny&Mosch auction(march 2007)

 

RWJ

 

 

Something is rotten in the state of Poland.

[grivna1726]

Do you think this guy does not know what he is selling?

 

 

I think he knows exactly what he is selling, but is hoping for a buyer who doesn't.

[BKB]

I think he knows exactly what he is selling, but is hoping for a buyer who doesn't.

 

 

And the slab will probably help his hope become reality. I wonder if that slab is real...

[WCO]

...I wonder if that slab is real...

 

Ask here: http://www.eccgrading.pl/grading.html

 

WCO

[grivna1726]

And the slab will probably help his hope become reality. I wonder if that slab is real...

 

 

It might be. The website looks quite slick.

 

I wonder if the grading company that slabbed it knows anything about counterfeit detection, especially when it comes to such extremely rare items. My guess is that they don't.

[grivna1726]

...The question arises as to why a seller in Poland had a coin graded by U.S. standards; if the piece is genuine, which is very doubtful, he could easily have sold it in one of the major Russian auctions...

 

 

RWJ

 

 

This is an excellent point.

 

If the coin is genuine, then why try to sell it on ebay? Surely the seller could get a much better price by consigning it for auction with any of the big Moscow dealers, who would no doubt be delighted to have the opportunity to sell such an exceptionally rare, desirable and valuable coin.

[WCO]

This is an excellent point.

 

If the coin is genuine, then why try to sell it on ebay? Surely the seller could get a much better price by consigning it for auction with any of the big Moscow dealers, who would no doubt be delighted to have the opportunity to sell such an exceptionally rare, desirable and valuable coin.

 

 

Russia and Poland are two different countries. Selling on e-bay Russian coin from Poland does not look that unreasonable. There are no good Russian auctions in Poland, the seller have no idea about auctions in Russia and can't even read Russian so e-bay is real alternative to sell. And it is graded by U.S. standarts since CCG grades by U.S. standarts. Agreed that CCG is not on a list of trusted graders though.

 

I do not know if the coin is authentic or not, do not want to jump to conclusions.

 

WCO

[grivna1726]

Russia and Poland are two different countries.

 

 

I have heard rumors to that effect, but thank you for the confirmation.

 

 

 

Selling on e-bay Russian coin from Poland does not look that unreasonable. There are no good Russian auctions in Poland, the seller have no idea about auctions in Russia and can't even read Russian so e-bay is real alternative to sell.

 

 

I don't know the situation in Poland because I am not there and I don't know anyone who is. Russian dealers are quite willing to buy Russian coins in America, Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, and other places and some very high prices have been paid at auction in those countries. I don't see why they would not be equally willing to buy them in Poland.

 

Even if, as you say, there are no good Russian auctions in Poland, major Swiss and German auction houses are only a short distance away and would be very happy to sell such an extreme rarity.

 

I'm curious, how do you know that the seller has "no idea about auctions in Russia and can't even read Russian"? Do you know him/her?

 

If I owned a Brasher doubloon, I would consign it to a major dealer like Dave Bowers for sale at auction, not try to sell it myself on ebay. Similarly, if I owned a great rarity like a genuine 1706 Russian ducat and wanted to sell it, I would consign it to a real auction with an important dealer, not try to sell it myself on ebay. It seems to me that this is just common sense.

 

 

And it is graded by U.S. standarts since CCG grades by U.S. standarts. Agreed that CCG is not on a list of trusted graders though.

 

I do not know if the coin is authentic or not, do not want to jump to conclusions.

 

WCO

 

 

WCO, are you familiar with this grading company? I have never heard of it before.

 

Anyone can start a grading company and maybe even be able to grade coins accurately. But grading is not the same thing as authentication, and authentication requires a lot more knowledge about how coins are made and about the diagnostics of counterfeit dies and their production. Maybe this grading company has such expertise, but I doubt it because I don't believe that this coin is genuine.

 

All grading companies are not created equal.

[WCO]

I have heard rumors to that effect, but thank you for the confirmation.

I don't know the situation in Poland because I am not there and I don't know anyone who is. Russian dealers are quite willing to buy Russian coins in America, Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, and other places and some very high prices have been paid at auction in those countries. I don't see why they would not be equally willing to buy them in Poland.

 

Even if, as you say, there are no good Russian auctions in Poland, major Swiss and German auction houses are only a short distance away and would be very happy to sell such an extreme rarity.

 

I'm curious, how do you know that the seller has "no idea about auctions in Russia and can't even read Russian"? Do you know him/her?

 

If I owned a Brasher doubloon, I would consign it to a major dealer like Dave Bowers for sale at auction, not try to sell it myself on ebay. Similarly, if I owned a great rarity like a genuine 1706 Russian ducat and wanted to sell it, I would consign it to a real auction with an important dealer, not try to sell it myself on ebay. It seems to me that this is just common sense.

WCO, are you familiar with this grading company? I have never heard of it before.

 

Anyone can start a grading company and maybe even be able to grade coins accurately. But grading is not the same thing as authentication, and authentication requires a lot more knowledge about how coins are made and about the diagnostics of counterfeit dies and their production. Maybe this grading company has such expertise, but I doubt it because I don't believe that this coin is genuine.

 

All grading companies are not created equal.

 

I just wanted to explain the reasons that may force people to sell even quite expensive coins on e-bay. If you think that selling expensive coins on e-bay is out of "common sense" well, it's up to you. I myself think differently. And considering that seller pays just 3-4% final value fees to e-bay vs 15-25% comission to a major auction house (from the final price of an item) can also make the difference in making design to sell on e-bay.

 

Again, I do not have any opinion if that coin is authentic or not and I do not know how good or bad is that grading company from Poland.

 

Best regards,

WCO

 

P.S. Grading is both authentication and estimation of state of preservation of a coin.

[RW Julian]

I just wanted to explain the reasons that may force people to sell even quite expensive coins on e-bay. If you think that selling expensive coins on e-bay is out of "common sense" well, it's up to you. I myself think differently. And considering that seller pays just 3-4% final value fees to e-bay vs 15-25% comission to a major auction house (from the final price of an item) can also make the difference in making design to sell on e-bay.

Again, I do not have any opinion if that coin is authentic or not and I do not know how good or bad is that grading company from Poland.

Best regards,

WCO

P.S. Grading is both authentication and estimation of state of preservation of a coin.

Unfortunately the question of a sales commission does not apply in this particular case. The seller is offering to sell this piece (Buy It Now) for $18,000 (say 14,000 euros) but also says that a less rare coin brought 26,000 euros at Gorny 157. Why not then take it to Gorny? The seller is clearly aware of this German firm by mentioning it in his offering. The sole explanation appears to be that the seller knows it to be false and hopes to sell it in the U.S. market by using U.S. grading standards.

 

RWJ

[WCO]

Unfortunately the question of a sales commission does not apply in this particular case. The seller is offering to sell this piece (Buy It Now) for $18,000 (say 14,000 euros) but also says that a less rare coin brought 26,000 euros at Gorny 157. Why not then take it to Gorny? The seller is clearly aware of this German firm by mentioning it in his offering. The sole explanation appears to be that the seller knows it to be false and hopes to sell it in the U.S. market by using U.S. grading standards.

 

RWJ

 

RWJ, I do not know what are true reasons for this particular seller to sell on e-bay, I do not know anything about this seller and I do not know if this coin is authentic or fake. For sure I would avoid this seller and his coin, just because (as everyone else) I have doubts about authenticity of the coin.

 

But I do know people who were ready to get half of the money for their coins but sell them fast, within one week due to emergensy reasons. Reasons may be many and different to sell for less and on e-bay. And those reasons does not prove anything.

 

Sincerely,

WCO

[rittenhouse]

But I do know people who were ready to get half of the money for their coins but sell them fast, within one week due to emergensy reasons.

 

I'm not sure how the market operates overseas, but here in the states many reputable firms will offer an advance for truly rare and hi value coins. I would view anyone willing to take half value as either a fool or a thief, and mostly the latter.

[grivna1726]

I'm not sure how the market operates overseas, but here in the states many reputable firms will offer an advance for truly rare and hi value coins. I would view anyone willing to take half value as either a fool or a thief, and mostly the latter.

 

 

It would make more sense to borrow money on a line of credit for emergency needs while planning for liquidation of the collection through a proper auction, rather than running out & selling truly rare and valuable coins quickly at fire sale prices.

 

Unless, of course, the Polish banking system is not sufficiently advanced to do that (which might be the case although I doubt it).

[grivna1726]

P.S. Grading is both authentication and estimation of state of preservation of a coin.

 

 

Grading is nothing more than a statement of the degree of preservation of a coin, which is only important because it relates directly to the commercial value of a coin.

 

Authentication is a completely separate matter which determines whether a coin is genuine or a forgery.

 

If a coin is fake, its grade is unimportant, because it is worthless in any condition.

 

If you are saying that grading services do provide some authentication function (e.g. PCGS or NGC will not slab known counterfeits), then I agree with you.

 

I know nothing about the ECC grading company. There's a lot of money to be made by starting a slabbing company, so I can see it attracting people of varying degrees of knowledge, and not all might have the same expertise when it comes to counterfeit detection.

 

It seems to me today's market is so preoccupied with what numeric grade submitted coins will receive, that people give little thought to authentication.

 

In the US coin market, coins in PCGS slabs are widely accepted and easily sold, while those in ACG slabs will be much more difficult to sell.

 

ECC might be able to grade, but I am doubtful about their skill in authentication, based on the 1706 ducat offered on ebay.

[WCO]

I'm not sure how the market operates overseas, but here in the states many reputable firms will offer an advance for truly rare and hi value coins. I would view anyone willing to take half value as either a fool or a thief, and mostly the latter.

 

Some "reputable firms" offer an advanced payments, other don't. But may also offer to buy coins on the spot. How do you think why they offer to buy? Do you think that someone who sold to a such "reputable firm" can consider himself robbed? Do you think that only thiefs sell to "reputable firms"? You got my points. I used to see many times how "reputable firm" purchased collection brought by a widow for 1/10 of the real cost. And no one was ashamed.

 

2: grivna1726. Coin grading applies only to authentic coins, so authentication is ALWAYS performed by all grading servises that I know. If you know ANY grading services that do grading without authentication, please let the community know, so we can avoid such a grading company.

 

Regards,

WCO

[RW Julian]

Some "reputable firms" offer an advanced payments, other don't. But may also offer to buy coins on the spot. How do you think why they offer to buy? Do you think that someone who sold to a such "reputable firm" can consider himself robbed? Do you think that only thiefs sell to "reputable firms"? You got my points. I used to see many times how "reputable firm" purchased collection brought by a widow for 1/10 of the real cost. And no one was ashamed.

Regards, WCO

What is said is of course quite true as such things do happen. This does not, however, apply in the case of the Polish seller of the 1706 ducat as it is quite clear that he knows the street value even if he does twist the facts for his eBay offering. All the seller has to do is look for a firm that will pay him a fair advance on an auction result or pay a reasonable price outright. In the case of genuine and rare Russian coins in high grade neither of these options should be a problem.

 

RWJ

[WCO]

What is said is of course quite true as such things do happen. This does not, however, apply in the case of the Polish seller of the 1706 ducat as it is quite clear that he knows the street value even if he does twist the facts for his eBay offering. All the seller has to do is look for a firm that will pay him a fair advance on an auction result or pay a reasonable price outright. In the case of genuine and rare Russian coins in high grade neither of these options should be a problem.

 

RWJ

 

This does not apply to the Polish seller of course, just discussion became more general and wide than just that case. I do not think there will be buyers for that coin, even if it would be a genuine piece there are too many burned out and suspicious prospective buyers and "обжёгшись не молоке, теперь дуют на воду".

 

WCO

[rittenhouse]

Some "reputable firms" offer an advanced payments, other don't. But may also offer to buy coins on the spot. How do you think why they offer to buy? Do you think that someone who sold to a such "reputable firm" can consider himself robbed? Do you think that only thiefs sell to "reputable firms"? You got my points. I used to see many times how "reputable firm" purchased collection brought by a widow for 1/10 of the real cost. And no one was ashamed.

 

2: grivna1726. Coin grading applies only to authentic coins, so authentication is ALWAYS performed by all grading servises that I know. If you know ANY grading services that do grading without authentication, please let the community know, so we can avoid such a grading company.

 

WCO,

 

Apparently you did not understand that what I posted is an American idiom about doing business in captial markets. This axiom says that if you see someone taking less than market value for an item, that person is either a fool or a thief. In the case of the 1706 ducat, IMHO there seems something terribly wrong here as the seller does seem to know the market value adn thus all can make their own conclusions.

 

As to reputable firms offering 1/10 "real value", they may or may not be reputable by offering such. In capital markets money has a "time value". If I can sell an item quickly, the item has a higher value to me and I will take less markup than an item that takes months or years to sell. So, if I offer 1/10 for an item that I know I can sell within a few days, I am being less than ethical. However, if I offer 1/10 because I know the item is thinly traded or so common that I will have to wait a good time for a buyer, then 1/10 is a reasonable price. Putting this in coin terms, I would happily pay 75% of retail for a rare coin such as a US 1793 Chain Cent, but I would only pay 10%, and possibly less, for a common Lincoln cent from the 1930s.

 

As to TPGs "authenticating" as part of the grading: Yes and NO. The TPGs are generally American companies and as such are mostly familiar with US coinage. They may or may not spot a counterfeit in foreign coin. I would not take a TPG graded coin as authentic simply because it is slabbed. In fact, I don't take many US coins as authentic simply because they are slabbed - one should be very careful with $10 and 20 US as I have seen "Omega" counterfeits slabbed as real. I think it is important to realize that the TPGs are operated as private businesses who are essentially in the business of providing "marketing value" to the coin industry. They are not "market regulators" like some coin version of the SEC. They are offering an "opinon" that may be correct or incorrect. And, that opinion changes with the market; hence the changing grading and "market acceptable toning" and other euphamisms. Cavet Emptor, you're not buying what you apparently think you are.