bobh Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 If I wanted to, and had the available funds, I could buy one of these coins of each type every single day on eBay, it seems. This weekend, the Zurich International Money Bourse is taking place here. At the UBS table, they had some Russian gold coins including a little plastic bag with 25 of the 7-1/2 rouble coins. They wanted CHF 500 per coin (about US-$400), but only if the entire lot is bought; otherwise, a single coin costs about CHF 535 or so. I didn't look at the coins individually, but judging from the lots offered at the recent UBS auction, I can't imagine that they were in a grade high enough to warrant this price. On eBay, you can usually find a nice one for about $300 or so. But why do these coins command such a premium over the 10 rouble gold coins minted after Witte's monetary reform which have 33% more gold in them? Mintage figures for 15 roubles are 11M+ and 16M+ for 7-1/2 roubles. Were they melted down in quantity? Uzdenikov (and Bitkin, I believe) both list these coins as scarce (dot). Why?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 That's simply because 7.5 and 15 rubles are one year type and if people tried to form a gold type set, you can always replace a 5 ruble coin with any other years but not for 7.5 and 15 rubles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 The 1897 7.5 and 15 Ruble coins corresponded in value to the LMU 20 unit and 40 unit coinage then in circulation in the LMU countries. I have previously owned one of each denomination, and they have appreciated considerably in value in the past 10 yrs. Now I wish I had never sold them. 5's and 10's are easy but the 15 is a pain to find in nice condition. They are all I now need for my Nicholas II type set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 The 1897 7.5 and 15 Ruble coins corresponded in value to the LMU 20 unit and 40 unit coinage then in circulation in the LMU countries. I have previously owned one of each denomination, and they have appreciated considerably in value in the past 10 yrs. Now I wish I had never sold them. 5's and 10's are easy but the 15 is a pain to find in nice condition. They are all I now need for my Nicholas II type set.They are ALL a pain to find in nice condition! However, I still don't perceive these coins as being rare, or even scarce. They are certainly available, and I've seen plenty of MS-certified 15 rouble coins. The 7-1/2 rouble coins seem to be much more difficult to find in higher grades, though. If we look at the 1884-S vs. 1884-CC Morgan USA dollars, I think you will see what I mean. The 1884-S is plentiful up to grade AU; after that, the prices increase astronomically. With 1884-CC, it is just the other way around. Besides, I don't know what influence the prevailing collecting habits might have on a coin's price or rarity. Either it is scarce, or it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 Really, there is a higher demand for these because of the denomination and the one year mintage. They were not minted in small numbers however, but demand drives the price. The 1911 10 Ruble is much rarer but not in demand because it is not a one year type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 Good day everyone! 15 Rubles. There are several varieties: 1. Mint State Narrow rim variety (letters "OCC" after truncation) - the most common variety http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003001040_1.jpg Easy to find in grades up to AU-58, scarce in MS till MS-63 and rare in any grade above MS-63. Choice examples may easily worth over $1000 while XF/AU's just $350-450. 2. Mint State Wide rim variety (letters "CC" after truncation) - somewhat better variety. Usually have a small premium 10-20% comparable to narrow rim variety. Again hard coin to find in choice MS grade. 3. Small head varieties - those are patterns - exceedingly rare (two varieties are known with "OCC" and "POCC" after truncation). 4. Proofs - these should exist, but can't recall if I ever saw them in Proof on any public sales. Very rare indeed. 7 1/2 Rubles. 1. Mint State Examples http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003001006_1.jpg Usually found in grades up to AU-58 for $400-500, in XF - $300+ Scarce in MS-61 to MS-63, ask is $600-900, rare in higher grades. I remember that MS-65 example was sold on auction for over $1000 about a year ago. 2. Proofs - again should exist but I do not remember any sold on a public sale recently. Very rare. I hope this helps. WCO P.S. If there is info on these coins sold in Proof or Small head varieties for 15 Rub. it would be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 P.S. If there is info on these coins sold in Proof or Small head varieties for 15 Rub. it would be awesome.Thanks, WCO. This is very useful information to me. I remember that there was an auction of «Монеты и медали» about 1 or 1-1/2 years ago where a small-head 15 rouble coin was offered. I think the estimate was $120,000 or something like that. Does anyone else remember that one? I don't remember whether or not it sold, though. Since I cannot bid on these auctions from outside of Russia anyway, I don't usually pay that much attention to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Thanks, WCO. This is very useful information to me. I remember that there was an auction of «Монеты и медали» about 1 or 1-1/2 years ago where a small-head 15 rouble coin was offered. I think the estimate was $120,000 or something like that. Does anyone else remember that one? I don't remember whether or not it sold, though. Since I cannot bid on these auctions from outside of Russia anyway, I don't usually pay that much attention to them. Right, that was the auction #33 "Moneti i Medali". Coin went unsold at $120,000. They also claimed this is the only known coin of this variety in private hands. http://www.m3m.ru/articles/2005/10/17/4467.html That coin was sold later in 2006 for $80,000. "... За 80 тысяч долларов уходит одна из самых редких монет последнего русского царя - золотые 15 рублей пробной серии 1897 года. Подобный уникум до сих пор видели на аукционах лишь однажды". http://www.trud.ru/trud.php?id=200604220720802&print=1 ----------- Also some Russian books and collectors state that there are more varieties of 15 Ribles. Varieties with slightly different Nicholas II haircut or higher-lower relief of bust. I do not know if those may be considered to be real varieties or just some insignificant differences in different dies. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Really, there is a higher demand for these because of the denomination and the one year mintage. They were not minted in small numbers however, but demand drives the price. The 1911 10 Ruble is much rarer but not in demand because it is not a one year type. I think that you perhaps intended to say the 1911 5 rubles, which is a very rare coin. The 1911 10 rubles, on the other hand, is the second most common date (after 1899) for the 1898–1911 coinage of Nicholas II even though sellers invariably state that it is very rare. (This is based on 925 five and ten rouble pieces appearing on eBay between October 2004 and May 2005. The results were published in RNS Newsletter No. 15, spring 2005.) RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 I think that you perhaps intended to say the 1911 5 rubles, which is a very rare coin. The 1911 10 rubles, on the other hand, is the second most common date (after 1899) for the 1898–1911 coinage of Nicholas II even though sellers invariably state that it is very rare. (This is based on 925 five and ten rouble pieces appearing on eBay between October 2004 and May 2005. The results were published in RNS Newsletter No. 15, spring 2005.) RWJ It is well known that Russian government restruck (between December of 1925 and March of 1926) 2,011,000 pieces of Nicholas II gold 10 Ruble coins, most likely dated 1911. This is why this date is not scarce at all. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 It is well known that Russian government restruck (between December of 1925 and March of 1926) 2,011,000 pieces of Nicholas II gold 10 Ruble coins, most likely dated 1911. This is why this date is not scarce at all. WCO At the same time they were striking the Chervonetz coins? Were they using them for international payments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 At the same time they were striking the Chervonetz coins? Were they using them for international payments? It may be possible 1911 10 Rubles were struck with intention for international payments in gold. Nicholas II type was still world-wide recognizable and trusted. The information about re-strikings of Nicholas II coins in 1920's is still a top secret so we can only guess. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 It kind of make sense as the planchets, alloy refineness, edging were almost similar to the ones back in the Tsar times. In 1923 when the Chernovetz were struck and in 1924 another prototype of the Chervonetz were struck, it seemed that it wasn't too popular and right now, there is only one of such 1924 chervonetz. Perhaps in 1924, the mint saw it more useful to restrike the Tsar 10 ruble coins. Isn't that the time when some of the rarer rubles like the Gangut rubles were restruck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josemartins Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 "...Are 15 and 7-1/2 rouble gold coins really scarce??" I think they're simply two cases of one year type coins that became popular but aren't really that scarce at all (good old offer/demand at work), altough the 7-1/2 coin also has the problem of not being a "VAT/Sales Tax" free coin in the EU. My bank sell 15 roubles coins, but altough the 5 roubles they sell are BU, and the 10 roubles are low end VF's the fact that they "Photoshoped" the 15 Rub. coin by using the 10 Rub. image but replacing the 0 in 10 with the 5 from the 5 Rub. coin don't inspire me to get one of those..., take a look: LINK Jose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 "...Are 15 and 7-1/2 rouble gold coins really scarce??" I think they're simply two cases of one year type coins that became popular but aren't really that scarce at all (good old offer/demand at work), altough the 7-1/2 coin also has the problem of not being a "VAT/Sales Tax" free coin in the EU. My bank sell 15 roubles coins, but altough the 5 roubles they sell are BU, and the 10 roubles are low end VF's the fact that they "Photoshoped" the 15 Rub. coin by using the 10 Rub. image but replacing the 0 in 10 with the 5 from the 5 Rub. coin don't inspire me to get one of those..., take a look: LINK Jose Hmm, accd to your bank they made 15 Rublei coins in 1899! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Hmm, accd to your bank they made 15 Rublei coins in 1899! I'm sure THAT one is VERY rare! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I do like the idea that Jose can go in and buy 7.5 and 15 Rublei coins, maybe he would like to send me one for Christmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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