Dassier - coin & medals

[IgorS]

 

Here it is.

[IgorS]

It just hit me. There was another medal by Dassier - death of Peter the Great.

Only the obverse fits in the post. It is in bronze, even though looks like silver.

[grivna1726]

Thank you for your kind words.

 

I don't have much Peter I minor silver, but I do have this coin. It is rare, but not as rare as your 1707 grivennik.

 

I am not sure, but I think it is possibly a novodel (although I would normally expect a novodel to be better struck in the center).

 

[grivna1726]

Here it is.

 

That is truly beautiful. I have this medal, but only in bronze.

[grivna1726]

It just hit me. There was another medal by Dassier - death of Peter the Great.

Only the obverse fits in the post. It is in bronze, even though looks like silver.

 

If memory is correct, I think that is the work of Jean Dassier, Jacques-Antoine's father.

 

It's a beautiful medal. It's not hard to see why the Dassiers were so highly regarded in Europe for their medallic art.

[IgorS]

If memory is correct, I think that is the work of Jean Dassier, Jacques-Antoine's father.

 

It's a beautiful medal.  It's not hard to see why the Dassiers were so highly regarded in Europe for their medallic art.

 

Based on Diakov's book this medal is also by Jacques Dassier.

If you have some references to the fact that this medal is by his father, it would be very interesting.

[IgorS]

1714 five kopeks seems to be a novodel, as you mentioned. Interestingly enough someone went into trouble of trying to make it look like an original by making it look worn and covering up some letters that could provide the correct information.

In the original the russian 'P' in word kopeck looks like 'II' without the bar on top joining the two IIs, in the novodel it should be normal. But in your coin it is impossible to tell because of the damage in that location. Interesting!

[grivna1726]

Based on Diakov's book this medal is also by Jacques Dassier.

 

Then I am almost certainly mistaken.

 

If you have some references to the fact that this medal is by his father, it would be very interesting.

 

I cannot find a specific reference to that effect. Forrer mentions in passing that Jean Dassier made 2 medals of Peter I (without specifying which ones they are), but says nothing of any medals of Peter by Jacques-Antoine. Maybe I just put 2 and 2 together and came up with 5.

 

Is your medal signed? Jean signed at least some of his medals "J.D.".

 

But I am getting in way over my head here and am unsure of which Dassier engraved the Death of Peter I medal. If Diakov says it is Jacques-Antoine's work rather than Jean's, then I will readily defer to his superior knowledge in such matters.

[grivna1726]

1714 five kopeks seems to be a novodel, as you mentioned. Interestingly enough someone went into trouble of trying to make it look like an original by making it look worn and covering up some letters that could provide the correct information.

In the original the russian 'P' in word kopeck looks like 'II'  without the bar on top joining the two IIs, in the novodel it should be normal. But in your coin  it is impossible to tell because of the damage in that location. Interesting!

 

 

I will reply in a few days. I want to have a closer look at the coin in hand before I respond.

[RW Julian]

Thank you for your kind words.

 

I don't have much Peter I minor silver, but I do have this coin.  It is rare, but not as rare as your 1707 grivennik.

 

I am not sure, but I think it is possibly a novodel (although I would normally expect a novodel to be better struck in the center).

 

 

In the Grand Duke's unpublished plates for 1711-1719, Plate 78 has five silver 5 kopeck pieces (Nos. 9-13) then - about 1914 - considered to be originals. The dies for your piece do not match any of the five coins, indicating that it is likely a novodel.

 

RWJ

[IgorS]

Then I am almost certainly mistaken.

I cannot find a specific reference to that effect.  Forrer mentions in passing that Jean Dassier made 2 medals of Peter I (without specifying which ones they are), but says nothing of any medals of Peter by Jacques-Antoine.   Maybe I just put 2 and 2 together and came up with 5. 

 

Is your medal signed?  Jean signed at least some of his medals "J.D.".

 

But I am getting in way over my head here and am unsure of which Dassier engraved the Death of Peter I medal.  If Diakov says it is Jacques-Antoine's work rather than Jean's, then I will readily defer to his superior knowledge in such matters.

 

Diakov compiled a lot of information and I am sure there are discrepancies as he is only human . The medal is signed I.D.

[grivna1726]

In the Grand Duke's unpublished plates for 1711-1719, Plate 78 has five silver 5 kopeck pieces (Nos. 9-13) then - about 1914 - considered to be originals. The dies for your piece do not match any of the five coins, indicating that it is likely a novodel.

 

RWJ

 

 

Thank you for this information. I have long suspected that this coin is a novodel, but never knew for sure. My version of GM is the Quarterman reprint, which does not include anything from Peter I.

[grivna1726]

Diakov compiled a lot of information and I am sure there are discrepancies as he is only human .

 

 

Perhaps so, but Diakov is in Moscow, presumably with access to collections, experts (and possibly archival documents) that are not available to me. It would take a special foolhardy conceit to flatly contradict such a person, especially when uncertain of one's facts.

 

 

The medal is signed I.D.

 

I.D. is pretty much equivalent to J.D., which Jean Dassier was known to use. However, it might also represent Jacques Dassier, so that is hardly persuasive (although I am not aware of Jacques signing his work in this manner).

 

If it is known when the Death of Peter I medal was engraved, then that might prove helpful. Jacques was born in 1715 so it is highly unlikely that he would have engraved such a medal until at least the mid-1730s (at the very earliest) which would place him in mid-adolescence and probably still learning the art of die engraving. Engraving a medal of such importance would seem more likely the work of a master engraver rather than that of an apprentice.

 

Jean Dassier died in 1769, a decade after the death of his son Jacques in 1759.

 

So, if the medal was made either before or after the reign of Elizabeth Petrovna (1741-61), then it is probably Jean Dassier's work. If engraved during the reign of Elizabeth, then it could be either Jean or Jacques (but with Jacques more being likely, in my opinion).

 

I might easily be mistaken about this being Jean Dassier's work, and look forward to hearing from others who might be able to shed some light on the matter.

[IgorS]

Perhaps so, but Diakov is in Moscow, presumably with access to collections, experts (and possibly archival documents) that are not available to me.  It would take a special foolhardy conceit to flatly contradict such a person, especially when uncertain of one's facts.

I.D. is pretty much equivalent to J.D., which Jean Dassier was known to use.  However, it might also represent Jacques Dassier, so that is hardly persuasive (although I am not aware of Jacques signing his work in this manner).

 

If it is known when the Death of Peter I medal was engraved, then that might prove helpful.  Jacques was born in 1715 so it is highly unlikely that he would have engraved such a medal until at least the mid-1730s (at the very earliest) which would place him in mid-adolescence and probably still learning the art of die engraving.  Engraving a medal of such importance would seem more likely the work of a master engraver rather than that of an apprentice.

 

Jean Dassier died in 1769, a decade after the death of his son Jacques in 1759.

 

So, if the medal was made either before or after the reign of Elizabeth Petrovna (1741-61), then it is probably Jean Dassier's work.  If engraved during the reign of Elizabeth, then it could be either Jean or Jacques (but with Jacques more being likely, in my opinion).

 

I might easily be mistaken about this being Jean Dassier's work, and look forward to hearing from others who might be able to shed some light on the matter.

 

I wanted to get to the bottom of this. It was time to use my bookshelf.

First - Iversen's book on medals of Peter the Great. This medal is pictured, but it simply expands I.D. as Dassier. No first name.

Second - Andolenko's comments on Iversen's book. No mentioning of this medal.

Third - Shchukina's 2002 book on monograms and signatures on Russian Medals of 18th - beginning of 20th century. This book mentions that Jaques Dassier had a two year contract in Russia and engraved Shuvalov's medal, Moscow University medal and also created dies for 1 and 10 roubles. It also breaks down initials J.D. as Jaques Dassier. No mentioning of 'Dignissimo' medal or Peter I death medal.

 

Still no answer...

[grivna1726]

I wanted to get to the bottom of this. It was time to use my bookshelf.

First - Iversen's book on medals of Peter the Great. This medal is pictured, but it simply expands I.D. as Dassier. No first name.

Second - Andolenko's comments on Iversen's book. No mentioning of this medal.

Third - Shchukina's 2002 book on monograms and signatures on Russian Medals of 18th - beginning of 20th century. This book mentions that Jaques Dassier had a two year contract in Russia and engraved Shuvalov's medal, Moscow University medal and also created dies for 1 and 10 roubles. It also breaks down initials J.D. as Jaques Dassier. No mentioning of 'Dignissimo' medal or Peter I death medal.

 

Still no answer...

 

 

Shchukina is an impressive source and her rendering of "J.D." as "Jacques Dassier" seems persuasive.

 

But see this link for a page of medals signed by Jean and Jacques.

 

If you check the attributions for these medals, "J.D." or "I.D." is attributed to Jean Dassier.

 

Medals attributed to his son, Jacques-Antoine, are signed variously

 

Ja. Ant. Dassier

I. A. Dassier

A. Dassier

J. A. Dassier

Iac. Ant. Dassier.

 

If (notice the qualifier) this signing pattern remained consistent, then that would suggest the Death of Peter medal is actually the work of Jean Dassier rather that that of his son.

 

It gets murky, doesn't it?

[IgorS]

Shchukina is an impressive source and her rendering of "J.D." as "Jacques Dassier" seems persuasive.

 

But see this link for a page of medals signed by Jean and Jacques.

 

If you check the attributions for these medals, "J.D." or "I.D." is attributed to Jean Dassier.

 

Medals attributed to his son, Jacques-Antoine, are signed variously

 

Ja. Ant. Dassier

I. A. Dassier

A. Dassier

J. A. Dassier

Iac. Ant. Dassier.

 

If (notice the qualifier) this signing pattern remained consistent, then that would suggest the Death of Peter medal is actually the work of Jean Dassier rather that that of his son.

 

It gets murky, doesn't it?

 

 

Thank you for the link. I actually communicated with Dr. Weiss in the past. Great site he has. And what do you know, on the page you refered us to I see death of Peter I medal and here is Dr. Weiss's description of the medal:

 

DASSIER, Jean: Russia, 1725, Bronze, 38 mm

Obv: Bust of Peter ® PETRUS MAGN. IMP. UTRIUSQ. RUSS. (Peter the Great – Emperor of Both Russias) (Great and Little Russia, corresponding to modern day Russia and Ukraine)

Rev: Neptune with his trident pointing to ships, and Pallas Athena (Minerva) in helmet, holding the shield of Medusa, pointing to St. Petersburg, architectural emblems at their feet. EX. UTROQUE MAGNUS (Legend and devices refer to Peter's legacy as a ruler “Great on both land and sea”).

Exergue: NAT. 30 MAII. 1672 M. 28 J. 1725.

Signed: I.D.

From Jean Dassier's Series of Famous Men

Scarce

Ref: Iversen p.62, No. 5;

 

So up above he is referring to Jean Dassier's Series of Famous Men.

I think we are almost there. We just need to find out more about this series, but I am not sure where. We can try to ask Dr. Weiss where he found his information.

[grivna1726]

Dr. Peter J. Thompson says this on page 4 of his book "The Dassier Family and its Medals":

 

"Other medals struck by Jean Dassier at about this time include:-

 

...Peter the Great of Russia, Memorial, 1725 (38mm diameter)"

 

 

It seems the authorities are divided, with some saying it is Jean's work and others saying or suggesting that it is Jacques'.

 

If this medal was created at the time of Peter's death in 1725, then it seems improbable that Jacques could have created it at the tender age of ten. This, if accurate, supports the contention that Jean Dassier engraved the medal.

 

Additionally, the "I.D." signature seems consistent with Jean Dassier.

 

While the matter is far from clear, Jean seems more likely to be the engraver based on the available information. Still, the fact that a recognized expert like Mme. Shchukina apparently says otherwise is enough to give pause and make the wise cautious in saying so.

[RARENUM]

Thank you for your kind words.

 

I don't have much Peter I minor silver, but I do have this coin. It is rare, but not as rare as your 1707 grivennik.

 

I am not sure, but I think it is possibly a novodel (although I would normally expect a novodel to be better struck in the center).

 

Hi,

Just short note. Dies was cleaned before struck .You can find similar 5 kopecks 1714 Novodel struck with same dies in Markov/Baldwin’s catalog from 01.16.03 :lot#560 5 kopecks 1714 , and lot #559 5 kopecks 1713 with similar cleaning on dies.

[grivna1726]

Hi,

Just short note. Dies was cleaned before struck .You can find similar 5 kopecks 1714 Novodel struck with same dies in Markov/Baldwin’s catalog from 01.16.03 :lot#560 5 kopecks 1714 , and lot #559 5 kopecks 1713 with similar cleaning on dies.

 

 

RARENUM, thank you for posting this information. Unfortunately, the catalog is not available online at Markov's website. If possible, would you please post a scan of the lots from the catalog for the purpose of comparison?

 

Thank you.

[STEVE MOULDING]

The New York Sale

Auction VI

January 16,2003

The Russian Collection

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd, London

Dmitry Markov Coins & Medals, New York

M&M Numismatics Ltd, Washington DC

Lot 560

 

[grivna1726]

The New York Sale

Auction VI

January 16,2003

The Russian Collection

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd, London

Dmitry Markov Coins & Medals, New York

M&M Numismatics Ltd, Washington DC

Lot 560

 

 

 

Thank you, Steve.

 

The Markov coin has more detail than mine, but does seem to be from the same dies (or, at least, very similar ones).

[STEVE MOULDING]

Thank you, Steve.

 

The Markov coin has more detail than mine, but does seem to be from the same dies (or, at least, very similar ones).

 

Agreed. The reverse shows the same die nick on the top-left of the 7.

 

Steve

[RARENUM]

The New York Sale

Auction VI

January 16,2003

The Russian Collection

Baldwin's Auctions Ltd, London

Dmitry Markov Coins & Medals, New York

M&M Numismatics Ltd, Washington DC

Thank You Steve for images from catalog.

[RARENUM]

RARENUM, thank you for posting this information. Unfortunately, the catalog is not available online at Markov's website. If possible, would you please post a scan of the lots from the catalog for the purpose of comparison?

 

Thank you.

I'm sorry for delay I was busy with my work before vacation .Thank You to Steven .+ I should check my collection to comparison your coin . Will post more images after 09.29.06.

[grivna1726]

I'm sorry for delay I was busy with my work before vacation .Thank You to Steven .+ I should check my collection to comparison your coin . Will post more images after 09.29.06.

 

 

Thank you. I look forward to seeing them when you return.