Ancient coins seem to mystify the sensations, they are mysterious, often misunderstood, and seemingly so removed from modern history that perhaps only the determined and inquisitive foray into such an interest.

Myself, I appreciate more of the artistry of the pieces, I view them not so much as numismatic history as much as a miniature and metallic artistic impressions of the cultures that created them.

What would pique your interests?

Often, price is a major factor when it comes to such in my opinion. With copper coins, you get a fair bit of corrosions which can be a pain to remove. Silver often is an excellent choice. If you want decent grade ones, price factors shoots up, and gold coins? Sure thing, when you win a lotto.

While I personally don't mind well made reproductions, the price of such are still a bit prohibitive at times. Another thing that does bug me is that if you don't know the history of the country of origin well enough, you just cannot appericate them well enough. Afterall, if you try to explain what coin you have, unless someone knows the history well enough, with no dates and just mere illustrations, it could prove to be quite taxing. Although that in reverse could mean there is the thrill to such though.

Indeed, I can see clearly that such coins can or should easily overrule our current coin designs. Sadly, I think I should be content over what I am collecting right now or else there will be bigger holes in my pockets.

I'd certainly collect them if I had greater interest in them, but I would purchase from well-known reputable dealers or collectors I know. I sure as hell wouldn't start by using ebay as my source for material.

As i do collect Ancients i can't answer the above questions because they aren't necessarily issues for me.

However, if i were to wonder why i only collected say Roman ancients and not other ancients, then i can contribute.

I think you hit it on the head when you said Ancient history seems so removed from modern history. Sometimes i find that the appealing advantage (coins as escapism), but sometimes i think particularly with say Greek coins an understanding and appreciation of the history behind the coins adds that dimension of interest that makes collectors buy them.

Consider most Ancient Greek coin collectors (i don't mean those that haphazardly acquire a few, but those collectors that actually collect them and know them), well the majority tend to be interllectuals that spend alot of time reading up on the period and understanding the political systems, the geographical climate, the literature and the philosophiy and religion. Plato, Socrates, Hippocrates, Pisistratus, Solon etc. names that might ring a bell.

Ancient coins become less about coins and their value and more about a culture study. But that requires alot of effort to learn, and there's alot of funny hard to remember names that crop up. Geez just try reading Tacitus, the names can really get you confused.

Roman coins are a bit easier to identify with because alot of people know a few things about the Roman way of life and dare i say might have seen the odd Roman epic film, be it Gladiator or something, it can give you an appreciation for the era (even if it's not entirely accurate). But the Roman period gets more airspace with the lay audience than say Greece or the Middle East does.

I think it all comes down to how well you feel you can associate with something. Personally i have no interest in any coins from China, India, Africa or anywhere else, they seem too far removed from me, this goes for coins issued in my own country say before the Roman conquest, the Celtic coinage is just something i feel i can't identify with. So i rarely bat an eyelid at it.

This might sound perhaps narrow minded, but i think alot of collectors have these boundaries you've only got to look at US collectors that collect only liteside, you ask them why and they answer that they feel they've got nothing in common with coins from anywhere else. So whilst that is on a geographical level, the same goes for viewing it on an historical period level.

I think it's a case of stick with what you know. But generally i'm a very cautious unadventurous person and i don't like new things, so take above view with pinch of NaCl.

Nice post Aetheling, I appreciate that when I started collecting ancients, frankly my first "real" significant ancient purchase was the Athenian Tetradrachm I purchased about two years ago. Now when I reflect on it, I envision that I really did not know a lot about the coin or the culture that issued it, I just had enough money and trusted the reputation of the dealer that sold it.

But seriously the ancients for me are more about the cultural artistic expression than they are as numismatic objects, the symbolism is important, the figures of Athena, Artemis, Arethusa, Persephone, Zeus etc become fascinating in the study of the culture. As you note, often times you spiral into the deeper aspects of the culture which issued them.

Like yourself, I have never delved or had interest in the coinages of India, China etc, but since I am travelling to China soon, I find that I have a bit of an interest lately in knowing a little more about ancient Chinese coins, I sure won't buy any there, as they have fakes galore, but might not mind buying a nice piece of spade money or knife money from a reputable seller at some point in the future. I collected more modern Chinese, well more like Manchu era coins for a long time and have several hundred cash coins from the various provinces.

I think for me it is a combination of fakes, cost and a lack of knowledge on my part. Having said that, I do own a few.

I also think that any collector interested in history is missing out if they don't own at least one even if it is a cheap Roman bronze like mine are. There are not too many ancient artifacts that the average person can own and just being able to hold an ancient coin in my hands was a worthwhile experience.

Price can be an issue but I think in copper and sometimes small silver there is a lot available for modest figures. One member of our coin club specializes in Greek bronzes. While a lot of coins are in bad shape, you can find pieces with nice patinas. His collection is quite beautiful, and I don't think he spends $100 on a single coin often if at all. Yes, the big sesterti or thick ptolemaic bronzes are going to cost three or even four figures but the smaller denominations can be had for the price of a good dinner.

In ancient coins, just as in US or any other area, there are coins for all price levels.

Good points Aetheling. The issue of connecting to the coins and the people is a real one. I love history, especially of the Middle East so I've read a bit on the early coin producing cultures. But, I've never had a big interest in Asian coinage or history. So I definitely agree with your points.

I think one way people could tie together ancients and modern coins is by collecting the modern coin and then an ancient coin that introduced the particular design. Not so much portraits, but the seated goddess, the eagles, the wreaths. Most themes have existed for a long time and such a collection or correlation would be quite interesting. At least to me

Great points everybody. For me it's quite simple - resources. I have limited resources to apply to my collecting efforts and choose to concentrate them in a few areas that are special to me.

I pay attention to the ancients when they're posted and I have a few. I've used a few in class when I was teaching. They're loaded with history. I feel that I can appreciate them and learn from them while dedicating my resources elsewhere.

I'm fond of ancients but don't seriously collect them. Why? Mostly beacuse I'm concentrating on other stuff (Holy Roman Empire) but also due to the vastness of the filed I've had trouble finding a starting point. I do enjoy browsing through them in person and online and have picked a few up from a local bidboard. I have a bunch of the Sears books and am kinda-sorta leaning in the Byzantine gold direction, but would also like to own aportriat denarius of Augustus.

Just too much cool stuff out there!

One thing I will mention with regards to pricing on ancient bronzes, particularly the Greek bronzes, they go up exponentially in price when they approach better grades. Some coins, for instance the little AE's from Ephesus, Ionia, are rarely found in nicer condition, consequently inexpensive examples can be found for under $50, but nicer ones go for hundreds.

My priciest Ptolemaic bronze, an AE46 would sell for about 20X times what I paid for it in the 1980's from a local dealer.

Some of the silver, notably the small issues from Miletos and Chersonessos can sometimes be found for under $20. I only collect the Chersonessus coins with bees or lizards on them though, talk about specialising.

I have to pass on the question as well since I do collect ancients. I have always been interested in them, mostly for their history and artistry. I did not collect them for years because I had other interests. I left collecting for 15 years (I set it aside, I still looked at coins) and found new interests when I returned. I bought a Celtic coin, a Roman coin, and a medieval coin to test the waters. I enjoyed all three, researched relative costs, the range of collectible coins, etc and my new collecting interest was launched. It is true that many, many coins are beyond my price range, but the same is true for U.S. and even modern commemoratives.

I started with the low end of the cost range, but I concentrated on the best quality pieces in the range. I got to know dealers, handled as many coins as I could, bought the relevant books, read lots, and became comfortable with my new collecting interests. With comfort, I began to acquire more expensive pieces and further refine my interests. I still cannot afford prices in excess of $2,000 or more, but there are a few items I would venture to purchase one of these days. With that limit, I can collect for many years and never accomplish all my collecting goals because so many pieces are very rare, but not that expensive. In other words, I have a collecting topic that will keep me involved unless I decide to change direction some day. In the mean time, I have a collection that I can be proud of and can be enjoyed without being haunted by holes in an album that I will never be able to fill.

Slightly off topic, but relevant none the less. Welcome to our new moderators for the ancient coin forum!

For me it really is none of the above. I collect mostly by design and I'm just not a big fan of the crudeness of them. They just don't appeal to me. It's really that simple.

The real reason isn't up there--so far, I've yet to see an ancient that scratched an itch. However, since that might be because I know very little about them, that's how I voted. But so far, it's mainly that I haven't seen one that I really really want.

I am also not able to answer the poll because I do collect them - at least casually. There are definitely some price issues with ancients, but you can engage in some degree of collecting with a very modest budget.

I started with the Klawans and Bresett intro book and a few bags of 'uncleaned' ancients. Although this is a good way to start a slug collection, I did learn a great deal. After a while, I gained some idea of what attribution meant. Spent many hours on Wildwinds.com and a host of other sites. Moved on to Sayles VIII and an older copy of Sear's Roman Coins and their values. Also picked up a cataloge/book by Carson, Hill and Kent. The education continues and will, I hope, for a long time.

Late Roman Empire is a great resting place for me. It's popular. It's full of history- I can speculate that my ancestors used the coins in my collection! Relatively inexpensive pieces are abundant. Given the vastness of the area we call 'ancients' it is relatively well defined. On the other hand, if you loosely define Late Roman Empire as a 200 year period (the Carson, et al book defines it as 324-498), then you are about on par with the entire period of US coinage. My collection is only about 30 pieces but I am very happy with it and plan on continuing to add a few pieces every year.

I dig the crudeness. It's modern stuff i can't be doing with.

My main problem is finding low grade pieces bronze which aren't faulted.

That's not the question.

Good thing, more crude coins for me

This thing is just so blasted crude, I don't know why anyone would collect or even remotely desire the miserable beast

And let us not forget a very "crude" ancient did in fact win PCI-5 as the overall winner, no small task considering the great modern competition, not bad for a 2400 year old coin:

I don't collecto ancients currently because of my lack of knowledge in the area. For all I know I could pay 3x the amount for a coin and not even know it. I like to understand where a coin came from, what it is made of, etc.

Ancients are a case of extremes though Dave. From the pinnacle of artistic beauty at one end, to the Celtic squiggles and swirls at the other.

Yeah. There is that. For me, I find that to be much more true with medieval coinage in my eyes, though.


For me, there are a number of pretty ancients but those tend to be the pricey ones as everyone wants them! The stuff that is cheap is usually the cruder bronzes and stuff like the few I have.

Sorry, I've still never met one that I would buy. I don't collect medievals either. I do have one, and that is special because it was given to me.

Actually from an artistic standpoint there are some Celtic coins I like for the form they have. I still think Greek coins are the loveliest around.

The discussion about what is crude, what is artistic, what is attractive, what is collectible, etc really relates to one's personal definition of the terms. We can probably agree that many medieval coins are crude in comparison to a Walking Liberty half or an Athenian owl, but they might be very attractive depending on the attributes that define attractive for your situation. The history, the patina, attributes of the die, the strike, the planchet, preservation, symbolism, the research to attribute the coin, etc contribute to attractiveness. Clearly many do not find medieval coins attractive and extreme rarities sell for amounts far less than some more common American coins. Thankfully, the diversity of interests keep my speciality mostly within my price range.

We should each collect those coins that we find attractive. It is, after all, a hobby meant to produce some measure of pleasure, satisfaction, knowledge, and relaxation. I enjoy coins of all types and love sitting with another collector and hearing about why they enjoy their collection. That's why I enjoy Coin People. How boring it would be if we all collected the same thing.

Well said, Bill!

Not to mention expensive! Can you imagine every member here going all-out on the exact same coin on eBay? Ow...

I put my vote with not knowing much about them. But there are really a number of reasons why I do not collect them at this point in time.

-I am trying to stay somewhat focused on what I currently collect.
-I have little to no knowledge about ancient coins, and thus the background work to learn about them would require a fair investment of time that I would prefer to dedicate elsewhere right now.
-The forgeries and fakes bit would somewhat fall under lack of knowledge.
-Despite a few nice ones that I have seen here, I have a personal preference for rounded milled coins.

I think they are very attractive, but like most others I don't have enough knowledge about them.

I have a few from one. Some just recognizable and id'ed. My problem is patience. I have thought about picking up some ready to go coins. But do like the clean them your self coins. I've got one batch sitting in olive oil now. I've got some were patience lost out. I'll drop them in omnicoin and post in this forum later.

Must take issue, Ætheling, being primarily a Celtic coin collector, as IMO the pinnacle of artistic beauty was attained by the ancient Celts, eg



That said I agree in general. The artistry of the Greeks has rarely been surpassed (except by Celts) and Roman silver is historically interesting and very affordable.

From 800 to 1800 it is all crosses and heads, with some exceptions (I love cartwheels, eg). Modern stuff is the same old thing over and over, political crap on one side, boring on the other and all ruined by grading services and 'investers'. I find little of artistic merit in modern coinage. Medallions are another story, as are some pre-modern issues. I have a small Victorian collection.

I started with Celtic, because I was in Celtic studies and have the collecting gene, but quickly found that to understand the Celts I had to understand the Greeks and Romans, so got bit by their collecting bugs. We are all related.

All that said, beauty is indeed in the eyes of the beholder.

Bill

Oh, if I only had the budget for that series!

Surely it's 'horses for courses'? I started with circulation pennies in the 1940's when good Victorian were still around but became intregued with hammered coins. Edwards led to wondering about history (real not propoganda) and I wandered into Celtic, Roman, Byzantine but came back to Plantagenet only because the history is so convoluted!
I guess I'm trying to say everyone has diferent reasons for our hobby and it's no use trying to "justify" our stance to others. We'll never agree!
Tiff, Why were you strung up?

Point taken.

* No, they are too old. [ 0 ] [0.00%]
(No votes. Perhaps "too old" is not well-defined and numismatics is an antiquarian hobby by its nature.)

No, they are too expensive [ 3 ] [15.79%]
(Though not usually found in pocket change, this is seldom a concern as they can be affordable and collectors spend money on their passions, anyway.)

No, I don't know anything about them [ 11 ] [57.89%]
I just finished reading a biography of JOHN ADAMS by David McCullough. You'd be surprised what we don't know anything about. I guess it depends on your usual sources of information. Perhaps a cogent poll would ask that: how do you find out about the hobby? About your interests?

No, I am afraid of forgeries, fakes etc. [ 5 ] [26.32%]
This is my big fear. I have my own preferences for avoiding problems. I shop certain dealers only and I like to get documentation with my coins -- the original packaging -- whenever possible. Knowing them intuitively helps... but I have horror stories of my own about important and knowledgeable dealers at famous conventions who got bitten by fakes. Even though I once attributed a lot of 250 of them for a dealer, I now believe that we have absolutely no idea what a genuine "widow's mite" looks like. They have been manufactured anew since the Crusades. An article in a Celator (March 2004?) showed fakes salted into bulk lots of cheap uncleaned Romans.

I also didn't vote because I really like ancients -- but I do agree with Michael that unless you know the dealer's reputation -- beware! It's just plain common sense that a 'crude' piece would be so much more easy to counterfeit.

There is the thought that with ancients, worn examples would be safest! That way you avoid the 'lead free copies' being 'aged'.(there are examples of copies of worn coins, but only if rare) My preference is for well circulated coins but that is only because I can speculate on how many hands it has passed through and what dramas it has been involved with! (I have a vivid imagination!)

I don't know anything about them. I think they are gorgeous and fascinating but I'm also weary of fakes.

I also collect ancients. Their great age and history appeal to me. I find it amazing that a coin that is over 2000 years old could look like it was minted yesterday. as a history buff to be able to associate a coin to a place and time when a great historical event occurred fascinating.

Ron

I collect em, they WERE all I collected for a long time until I got into modern coins as well...now I collect everything but my first love and emphasis is still ancients.

Hello,

Most people voted they wouldn't collect ancients as they don't know nothing about them : read and learn....

Qcumbor

I used to have an ancient Greek coin which I purchased it from a Perth coin shop in Australia in 1987. I did some research on it only in 2004 when I selling it away. At that time, it was my most treasured old coin when I first started with my coin collection. I will find the pic and show it to everyone.

Together with this Greek coin, there are a few other coins I purchased from the same shop. There is one strange ( to me ) early Thailand copper coin which I still have it with me. I will have to find it. It's somewhere.

Why Wouldn't You Collect Ancients? Coin collectors don't collect ancients because they're ignorant, dumb, lazy, or xenophobic (the latter being a combination of ignorance, dumbness, and laziness).

1. Ignorant

They don't know anything about them, and ignorance breeds fear. Ancient coins can't be found in pocket change, can't be fitted neatly in Whitman folders or other prearranged groupings, come from many different countries, were minted over many centuries, and have legends in many languages and often in different alphabets, those that have legends. Collecting ancient coins requires you to read.

2. Dumb

They don't have the ability to read.

3. Lazy

They don't have the desire to read.

4. Xenophobic

They regard American coins (or the coins of their own country) as the only ones worth collecting, being afraid or hostile toward ancient as well as world coins or being uninterested in general about anything beyond their parochial horizons.

As a result of this ignorance, some regard ancient coins as crude. If they read (or even just looked), they would see that the most refined and beautiful and evocative coins ever minted were minted by the ancients, particularly by the ancient Greeks. But even if the Celts produced stunningly beautiful numismatic art, though in their case it was nonrepresentational and abstract, the difference between a Picasso and Rembrandt painting. If they read, they would understand the difference between the artistry that went into the design and hand cutting of the coin dies (often though of course not always inspired) and the technology that went into the preparation and hand striking of the planchets (primitive).

Unlike with current American coins, ancient coins weren't designed by committees that tried to appease every loud interest group out there and offend no one. (You may be surprised to learn that I'm not like that myself.) As a result, state quarter designs and just about every other U.S. coin design over the past century or so is typically deadly dull and uninspired (there are exceptions). Modern European coin designers don't appear to be as constrained by their political overseers (there are exceptions here too) and have produced much more creative, interesting, and eye-appearling work.

Besides the sheer beauty of their design, there are two other reasons ancient Greek coins in particular are more inspiring than U.S. coins. First is their high relief, the reason a high relief Saint is so much more impressive than a business strike Saint. Ancient Greek coins are sculptural. In this case it's not the fault of modern coins or coin designers but an unavoidable reality of modern coin manufacture and usage.

The other reason for the attractiveness of ancients of course is their history. Western civilization originated in Greece. The ancient Greeks took the relatively inchoate antecedents they inherited from Mesopotamia and Egypt and developed them into science and democracy, into experimentation, discovery, and reason, the cornerstones of our society today. This heritage shines through on the coins. Rome took what it inherited from Greece and spread it through Europe. Though this heritage was largely lost during the Dark and Middle Ages (faith not reason was the dominant reality), it was rediscovered during the Renaissance, and it proceeded to be lost again by the current U.S. administration (faith not reason is again the dominant reality).

So join the ancient coin collecting community, and you too can be a stuck-up, condescending babbler.

Actually, the serious answer is that collecting ancients requires more work and comes with more risk. The work, though, can be exquisitely rewarding, shedding light into our origins, and the risk can be controlled by smart buying.

I wouldn't mind starting a collection by type, but I wouldn't know where to begin, what to look for, how to avoid a fake, etc. I've got enough other sets that are in various stages of completion (on non-completion) to keep me busy for a while. One day I hope to collect ancient coins, but I'll be on the coin forums for advice and education first.

There are lots of type sets you could build, including inexpensive ones with very little risk of fakes. Here's just one, which I've personally done, a House of Constantine bronze set:

http://rg.ancients.info/constantine

Others have done other sets. You could focus, for instance, on Roman army campgate bronzes from various emperors (depicting on the reverse the entrance of Roman army encampments), or Roman FEL TEMP bronzes from various emperors (dramatically depicting on the reverse a Roman army horseman spearing an enemy soldier). As with a House of Constantine set, both of these would also be very inexpensive -- $10 to $20 a coin, more if you go with very well preserved or rarer varieties, less if you go with pick bin coins.

Greeks are maybe three times more expensive on average than Romans (with lots of exceptions). You move up in price also as you go from bronze to silver to gold coins.

Here's one way to get started, another page of mine:

http://rg.ancients.info/guide/ancients.html

Another way to get started is buying Wayne Sayles' book Ancient Coin Collecting Vol. I. Something like $20, I believe.

Dont be ignorant, dumb, lazy, or...uh... xenophobic!!

You must collect ancients right now or you are all of the above

Actually, you can be ignorant, dumb, lazy, and xenophobic, or any one or any combination of the above, and still collect ancient coins. You know that, right?

Oh, and I left out crazy as a reason for not collecting ancients. You'd have to be crazy to be interested in coins and not have one ancient in your collection. Then again, I think everybody is crazy who doesn't find any appeal to coin collecting. I guess I'm crazy.

An ancient coin is a direct connection to our cultural source, a visual and tactile thread that links us to what made us. And if you go deeper into the elemental composition of coins, you can travel back not thousands of years but billions, before there was an Earth and Sun, back to the explosions of massive stars, or supernovae, that created the gold, silver, copper, tin, zinc, and nickel that coins are made of, all the elements in fact with atomic weights heavier than iron. Not aluminum. Or aluminium to Brits who don't know how to spell right.

I think for most people it just comes down to the fact that they are too far removed from ancient history to appreciate the coins. When you consider the long term effects that ancient coinage had on influencing even modern coinage it all comes full circle, and then you can appreciate ancient coins much more.