I've been slowly reading through the small book Coin Chemistry listed in the Numismatic Books thread. It's a collection of articles by the author. There's some very interesting information. The author has quite a few articles on toning but one in paricular has settled into longer term memory.

He deals with toning and dipping and the impact on the coin's luster. In essence the darker the color the more of the surface has been altered by toning (yello, red, blue, black). So any dip will remove more luster the darker the coin. A black coins is beyond repair, while two dips of blue coins will do the job. Obviously there's a lot of other factors, especially the length of the dip, but the point is that toning is damage to the pristine surface of the metal.

The author also laments cons receiving higher grades because of toning which he considers post mint damage. I tend to agree, a coin can stay the same grade or go down but up? Eventually, unless you get some Intercept shields, the coin will head towards black.

I also think that overdipped coins that have lost luster should be graded AU-dipped rather than just bodybagged

In my mind, toning can actually be seen as a protective coating and a normal state for the metal involved. So, I think he has that part wrong.

In my mind, regardless of the toning involved, dipping is the actual damage. It may not be damage that is noticeable to the eye the first time or the second but it is damaging the coin. The proof is that if done enough times or long enough the damage becomes apparent to the eye. But, that is just a matter of degree and it damages the same way whether you are dipping a toned coin or a white coin. It is damage either way. The acid eats away at the metal and, of course on Uncs, that is the flow lines (luster).

As far as the grade thing, I don't buy into the whole market grading thing so I agree with him there.

Was the author's last name White???

There are a few toning nazi's out there spewing that garbage.......Toning is NOT damage......it's silvers natural reaction to it's environment and as Stujoe pointed out...the toning protects the surface of the coin.

Also the fact that a coin has toning does not mean it will continue until it's black. Take a coin out of the environment and you have stopped the toning process. You don't need an intercept sheild for that.....only if you want to insure your coins never tone.

There are beautiful rainbow toned coins that have been sitting in PCGS holders since they first began.......and 20+ years later they look just as colorful as the day they were slabbed.

It's ok to not like toned coins but right now there is a lot of bashing going on and all folks really need is a little education on the subject. (I am not inferring that you personally are doing the bashing by the way)

Heck, it was news to me that there is an active community interested in toned coins.

And definitely, it is all in the eye of the beholder anyway. I wouldn't buy a heavily toned coin, because they don't suit my eye, but I wouldn't hesitate at a subtly-toned one. The obverses on the quarters (but not so much the reverses and not at all the other silver) in my '00 silver proof set are going smoky, and it's a very pretty effect. A couple of the coins, it's only the frosted areas that are toning, which is very pretty indeed.

If you ever visit the other coin forums you will learn about what's being called Peacegate. That has brought about the bashing and the prognostication of the demise of toned coins on an almost daily basis. It will all blow over soon but right now....those that feel like it's stupid to pay a large premium for toned coins are in a feeding frenzy!!!

Well, it is stupid to pay a large premium for toned coins.




























It is also, in and of itself, stupid to pay a premium over face value for ANY coin. That doesn't (nor should it) keep one from doing so.

I beg to differ, toning is damage, environmental damage. I don't want to get into an eye appeal debate here, i'm talking on a purely chemical level. Take Iron, Iron reacting with H2O and O2 eventually leads to Iron oxide or rust. Few would argue that rust is not damaging the metal as it flakes away. It is progressive oxidisation.

Silver likewise oxidises generally to black, if left in an environment with O2 constantly attacking it it will eventually turn black, it might take years but it will happen. There is a webpage out there somewhere (i can't find it now) but it shows the oxidisation process in action on the alkaline metals and on some of the rare earth metals. Watch them go... literally as they turn to powder! [of course they're very reactive but it shows you exactly what's happening with silver, just a bit faster].

Cut sodium and watch the shiny surface slowly turn grey and eventually darker grey, silver does the same but much more slowly many decades slower.

As for the bright colours being shown from the silver coins this is merely light reflection due to changes in the surface of the coin. Certain colours are reflected more this is due to something being on the surface of the coin, be it silver oxide, silver chloride or whatever.

Silver has progressive oxidisation, i.e if left it gets worse (hence tarnishing, once it's tarnished it's tarnished if left it will get worse, to remove it you have to strip away the layer of silver that has reacted with the atmosphere, which creates more damage).

Aluminium on the other hand has protective oxidisation in that the oxide is less reactive than the elemental form, so once the metal is totally coated with a thin oxide layer no further reaction can take place, although that initial layer of aluminium on the surface is no longer pure aluminium, it's physically changed into a compound.

Yes, see Coin Chemistry

To make one clarification all this deals with silver, with copper people usually leave on the patina and it is stable. I suspect the silver patina is stable as well but I am unsure if that happens only after you get black level.

Before then if you remove the coin from sulfur it should stay the color it made it to. But, the author did do an experiment to show that coins in slabs do tone. Heck, I have a cent in a PCGS holder that's gone from RED to RB in 5 years. He does push the intercept product to retard all toning.

In my view, you can certainly enjoy the pretty toning and you can halt further toning by properly protecting the coin.

But, the damage to the silver metal is chemically real. Silver has changed to silver sulfide and will never change back. You may like that process, but it is still an alteration to the coins minted state. I do agree with White that colored coins should not be graded higher. That doesn't mean people can't more or less for them, that's the market at work.

The main point of the chapter was that toning, dipping,and retoning will quickly damage and then eliminate luster.

My biggest question is that if I can tone coins in slabs, should they then be worth more money?

Revisiting the tricky subject of the colours silver turns. Simplistically put;

Imagine the surface of the coin, light hits it reflects and it looks silver. Chemical reactions with the atmosphere can alter the surface of the coin, say the coin develops a thin layer of oxide. The chemical changes can affect the makeup of the coin's surface, tying up electrons in the compound, i presume this would change their energy levels? (An physicists/chemists in the building?)

Electrons vibrate at certain frequencies depending upon the substance they are part of, the more energy the more they move. I presume a chemical reaction would alter the energy state of the electrons and this accounts for the tarnishing or the colour change. So for instance if a coin turns to a red tone then the red light frequencies are still being reflected but the other frequencies are now being absorbed. Which suggests that the energy frequencies of the electrons in the intial layer of the coin have been changed and have increased their vibrations.

If they had decreased in energy then they'd be giving of blue and absorbing red.

Or so as i understand it, but i'm no physicist.

That's right sulphides not oxides. Sorry temp slip there from me, it's been a while since i did any chemistry.

The way I understand the color changes is that it depends on the depth of the silver sulfide layer. A thin layer is yellow, a thicker layer is red, then blue, until the layer gets thick enough to block all the light and turns black. The guy had the depths listed in the book, I can post those values later today.

It's all down to energy somewhere along the line though because colour is light and light is a form of energy (hence E=MC2, energy = mass X speed of light squared).

Although perhaps certain thicknesses reflect it at certain angles... ah who cares. (Physics was never my strong point). End of the day though it's still an entertaining way to watch a coin die (or dye).

This discussion as well as "Peacegate" once again remind me what a blessing it is to collect gold coins.

Here's one of my "damaged" coins.......

I like a lot of toned coins I've seen, and I've paid "stupid money" for some that I own. I buy what appeals to me, whether other people like it or not. I don't really care if it is considered "damage" to some. It's pretty to me, and I ain't gonna live long enough to see 'em turn black anyway

Some of the prettier ones are in my sig below.

You really should melt that down. Coins damaged that much should be considered junk and disposed off.

Practically black allready. Better just send it to the smelter

toning is a natural process on a coin. it is not damage

Toning on silver is not the same as rust on iron neither on a chemical level nor a physical level. It involves different chemicals (Oxygen as opposed to Sulphur) and it is not a destructive process (you will not see a toned silver coin disolve from the reaction like iron will).

I have found that in general, predictions of the death of any one segment of the coin collecting market are about as accurate as predictions that the Mint will stop hammering out pennies or that the Treasury will stop printing one dollar bills.

You're going to pay a premium for what you want, and the value of an object to a collector can bear no resemblance whatsoever to 'book' value. I was doing flea markets when I was eleven--back when they were all small antique dealers, coin dealers, etc. and not Amway and Herbalife shows--this I know.

I still love the fact that folks still claim infatically that toning is damage........what a riot.......please keep up the story so I can get some discounts on some pretty toned coins....I love you guys!!!

The grading services are all completly incompotent as they keep giving out MS65-MS69 grades to damaged toned coins........it's a big scam I tell you

White has been spouting off about this subject for years - apparently in the hope that eventually somebody would listen to him. In a purely techinical sense I suppose he is correct. Luckily, in my opinion, most of the numismatic world ignores him.

*Checks recent toned coin auctions*

Yup. Sure looks like they are ignoring his "advice".

Well you're welcome to them.

Slabbing is a scam in itself as a grade is merely an opinion, not an absolute.

I am not a huge fan of slabs but, the fact that a grade is an opinion, in my mind, does not invalidate third party grading. Or make it a scam. If it was a guess, then I think it would make it a scam but there is a fundemental difference between an educated opinion and a guess. For example...

If I have a bust half and I ask Jim what he thinks the grade is, his opinion has value to me - whether he charges me for it or not - because it is an area he has experience in and he has seen a lot of coins and studied a lot of coins. Further, he probably wouldn't charge me if I asked him to grade a single coin for me. But, if I asked him to grade 11 million, he might want a little compensation for his time, effort and knowledge and that is not a scam in my mind.

If I have a bust half and I ask my wife for an opinon on the grade, that would be a guess and have no particular value to me as she knows nothing about them other than they cost money. And, if she asked for payment for her opinion in that area, she may or may not be scamming me but I would certainly be a fool to pay it.

True.

But perhaps i didn't make my point clearly enough. Before slabs you had less grades, slabs encourage a fine tuning of grades to minute lines of different between each. Before slabs would the difference between MS67 and MS68 be even a point of contest? Slabbing has allowed far too much precision in my mind and has thus set artificial boundaries to stupid scales than most collectors couldn't tell the difference between. Could you tell an MS67 from and MS68? Well i couldn't.

The explosion in the number of grades being used has pushed the price of coins way up... is this progress? Not for your average collector it's not. US coins are so expensive now that many coins are beyond reach of the normal person without deep pockets.

Sure there are many reasons for this price rise beyond slabbing but slabbing is a fundamental reason for the price rise. And the slabbing companies just milk it. To say nothing of the commem trash that the mints pour out.

God i wish i was in the 60s... collecting was so much simpler and straight forward back then. No slabs, fewer grades, ah heaven, less trash coming out of the mints. The fact that some mints ignored collectors completely was a GOOD thing! Proofs only on good occasions like 50th anniversaries of important events, not just because the sun is shining or that cloud over there looks perculiar, 'i know lets commemorate it!'. Who's bloody idea was that?

I really hate modern numismatics with a passion, it has to be said.


And don't get me started on errors...

Thanks for the plug, Stu. And you are right; I would probably require compensation to get my opinion for a larger amout of bust halves. Your post, however, highlights what I most dislike about TGPs though. No grader can be an expert on the entire range of coin series. Therefore, their opinion on many series that they don't see 100's of on a daily basis IS a guess. American colonials, for example, come to mind. For years bust material was also in this catagory. Fortunately(???) this is changing as more and more early bust coins are being submitted. And, sure enough, the grading on them is getting more consistant. (Athough they STILL call nice AU coins MS. But that is a different rant!!)

Back to the original question of toning being damage...it is, but so what??? Hobo nickles are damaged, too, but that doesn't mean that well done ones aren't worth huge multiples of what the coin would have been worth without the "damage".

It all comes down to "Buy what makes YOU happy!!!"

I'm glad someone else thinks toning is damage too! Heck i've seen some gorgeously toned coins but i know in my mind that they're still damaged, doesn't mean they're not pretty though.

You seem like a very unhappy collector to me so why collect? I don't have a problem with you thinking toned coins are damaged or even if you don't want to collect them as everyone is entitled to their own opinion but.........you seem real disconnected to this day and age. Sure I understand that people did things differently 30-40 years ago but you need to move on and focus on the positives in numismatics and not the negatives. If their aren't any positives for you then sell your collection and start buying stamps or something.

The world changes and evolves.......to live in the past will get you know where in the future. Stick with raw coins if that's what you like......I love purchasing raw coins and I know how to grade so I don't have to own slabs...I just choose to as I like the protection they afford coins.

As for the Modern commems......I don't buy them either...they are mass produced and they are all Gem Mint ++++++++ when they leave the shop so their will always be a large supply even if their is a demand for them........but you can't let that interfere with your enjoyment of the hobby in 2006......just don't buy them

Both are irreversible

Good advice! Is toning really damage? In my dictionary damage implies a change for the resulting in harm or loss of value. To some toning is clearly a change for the worse, but that is a matter of opinion.

Toning is an irreversible chemical process is more accurate, but that would make for a boring thread.

I think you'll find my statements above actually fit in with alot of British opinion on these matters. We shunned the MS grading system as over the top. As for slabs an incident on UK.RCC comes to mind. A company decided wouldn't it be a good idea to start slabbing British coins, well the day of the announcement came on that one and a load of irate British collectors emailed the company and demanded to be removed from their mailing lists and said they wanted no further part in it. Then they posted rather vehement replies to the UK.RCC board complaining about it and warning the rest of us, who then all scratched the company off of the list. There is a general fear of Americanisation and Brits really get tetchy and quite defensive about it.

I always remember one of my regular dealers who had a slabbed coin in stock one day. I said "what's the crack with that then?", he replied "oh i got that from a dealer who got it from America, now it says it's MS62 but i'm telling you that's not even EF!"

Same with the toning (as Stujoe will testify) a heck of alot of Brits will see colourful tones and will run a mile (or want a discount). The golden words in the English collector's approach is 'Even tone', many catalogues were spouting off the joys of the 'even tone' and how 'all collectors want this'. Thus they brainwashed us into thinking even's the only way forward. Thus discounts are often available on speckle tones and on other undesirable uneven tones. Where dealers worry about being able to shift them.

Maybe the internet and greater contact with the US is changing this to some degree but there's alot of die-hard conservatively minded Brit collectors (like me), still going around telling all the newbies exactly what we were taught in the 80s (well it was the early 90s but i was reading mid-80s catalogues). So i have very 80's opinions on things.

To a US collector coming to Britain though they'd find alot different, Whitman folders are actively shunned because of the dangers of toning. Hence why British Whitman folders are so hard to source, because everytime we guys hear of one we advise the owners to immediately rescue their coins from it and put them somewhere safer, like coin trays... coin trays are all the rage (or so Chris tells me).

Very fair response......It doesn't sound like you have changed the way you collect over the years which I think is great. Stick with what you are comfortable with since it's your money. I can't say I know a lot of Brits so if you say they don't like toning then I certainly believe you.

Why would they shun originality though? Old coins tone....it's just a matter of fact so if they are collecting 18th and 19th Century coins........and heck probably a lot older then that as well.....I would think they would embrace a nice original skin even if the rainbows don't do it for them?

By the way my parents live outside of Manchester

toning to some is beautiful and have to pay a heavy price. what about if i can't afford to buy a toned coin. can i make one and how?,

Neither the smallest of bag marks nor the slightest of wear is irreversible either. But, unless you want to consider anything less than a perfect MS70 coins as being damaged, that is probably not where we want to draw the line.

Every coin in my collection is damaged as I collect mostly circulated coins and wear is absolutely damage. That doesn't mean I don't like them, though.

Kinda funny you should say that - I've been telling US collectors to not use albums for years. But not because of the toning they cause - because it damages the coins to use them.

Coin trays huh ? What are they made of ? Are the materials inert ? If so, fine I see nothing worng with that. But I hope the coin is placed in a holder first to prevent it from sliding around on the surface of the tray and becoming damaged.

And what about coin cabinets ? Brit collectors used those for years - many still do. They damage coins too and cause toning besides. The wood, the velvet or felt liners, the glue, the varnish etc etc.

Simon I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm merely trying to point out a few things. Even the Brits change, and yes they change their grading as well. 30 years ago they only used 2 Unc grades - today they use 3. 30 years ago there was F VF XF etc. Today there is About VF - VF - Good VF - Very Good VF - the same for the G or XF grades. How is that differnt from VF20 - VF25 - VF 30 - VF35 etc ? And yes we have more grades of unc. But all in all, the number of the grades that is used in Europe is not that much different than that used in the US, especially for the circ grades. Count 'em up, but when you count be sure you count the adectives too. The only difference is that you folks use adjectives and we use numbers.

As for toning, you have told me a hundred times how much you like a nice even grey tone on a coin. Toning is toning pal - it's just different colors. You like grey, I like red and blue. You like chocolate - I like vanilla. It's just a matter of taste. US and European collectors are not really that much different after all.

It's not so much that one is good and the other is bad - we're just different.

Personally I just love a toner. . . .A beauty at half the price.

You can buy some nice raw toned coins and even cheaper slabs for under $15 bucks so why would you need to try to make your own? Just go on Ebay and type in toned or rainbow under the US coin section and you will find a lot of innexpensive ones you can add to your collection.....of course Morgan dollars can't be had that cheap but for under a hundred bucks there are tons of them out their with a little color on them.

Good Luck!!!

For Ebay search:

Toned
Colors
Color
Colorful
Toning
Beauty
Rainbow

It's amazing how many toned coins go for under $15 (like krypt mentioned). I want to do a series of toned Morgans in different slabs by different companies. Haven't seen any nice ones in the new ANACS holders.

I love toned coins,,, my problem with them is:
1 - I don't think the grading services can honestly tell the difference between NT and AT... assuming the AT was imparted via acceleration of the natural toning process vs. dumping a bunch of chemicals in a vat and cooking the tone into/onto the coin. I purchased one or two that went from nicely rainbowed to puke black in a couple of years (and yes they were removed from the elements,, although were not graded,,and were raw probable AT)
2 - I think accelerated natural toning of coins can probably be done rather easily by pro's. (ie - take a $5 coins, tone it, grade it, and then charge $50+ for it).
3 - I can't stand paying $50+ for a $5 coin. $7 maybe...

My gut just says that someone with expertise in the artifact/coin restoration business could churn these out at will and eventually saturate the market,,, leaving me with an expensive neon rainbow pet rock.

Well, I went wandering through my coins, and found some British halfpence that are getting a lovely indigo around the edges... I tried scanning 'em, but it just doesn't show yet. If I want to let them continue toning naturally, what should I do? And if they reach a state that I really like, how do I arrest the toning?

If they are toning where they are and you like it, you should probably leave them where they are and just monitor them. To arrest the toning, getting them out of that environment and putting them in hard plastic holders, maybe using intercept holders, etc would help.

If they are toning where they are and you like it, you should probably leave them where they are and just monitor them. To arrest the toning, getting them out of that environment and putting them in hard plastic holders, maybe using intercept holders, etc would help.

Toning IMO is a type of damage. But it can be likeable

I will do that. I assume there's nothing to do about the silver proof set without cracking them--and of course, I don't want to do that. The one that's toning only on the frosted part... that's going to be a pretty coin if it stays that way.

Actually, toning is damage as it is a chemical reaction that happens to the surface of the coin. The longer it remains, the more toning results. The fact that we won't see a silver coin crumble before our eyes doesn't mean it is not damage. The surface is changed and stays chemically reactive as long as long as the coin is exposed to air. The coin certainly wont turn into junk in our lifetime but it will continue over centuries until most of the coin is destroyed.
Have Fun,
Bill

I think centuries might be a very very low estimate on how long it would take the process of toning to really destroy a coin in the real world. I think it would be on the order of many thousands of years if not tens of thousads or more. There are a plethora of coins that have been exposed to this world for hundreds or thousands of years and have not been even close to partially destroyed do to the process of toning. Corrosion in soil, etc. Yes. But not the toning process involving sulphur.

So if toning is looked at as damage in that sense, it is certainly not one we have to worry about. A worn coin that circulated for a year is much more damaged than a toned coin ever will be in a hundred lifetimes.

I agree completely...