Purhcased this coin off of ebay recently:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=8360947980

I receive the coin, drop it in the Dansco and notice something. The coin has medal orientation, maybe the eagle's head is 5-10 O'Clock relative to liberty's. Ordinarily I'd be 'hey cool!' but I am aware that there are many fake dollar coins out there (although trade and bust seems to be the most common fake)

Any known examples of this, or do I likely have a fake?

I'll be weighing the coin on monday. Anyone have other info about the w/motto dollars, such as number of reeds, or other diagnostic features I can use to authenticate it?

thanks for any advice and help.

--
Fjord

I have never seen an authentic one with medal orientation....my best guess is it that is a fake....

take a look at the surfiace with a loupe...look for very small pits...
there is a slight chance it could be an error with a 180 degree rotated die....but with all the fakes I have seen I doubt it...does the seller have a return policy???

If you have a question about the coin....return it and find one that you are %100 about or your always going to have doubt..

It has the colouring suggestive of having been minted recently in a land across the Pacific Ocean, however I have not seen the piece in person and am only going on your image.

And BTW SL Dollars are commonly faked also, and recently Peace and Morgans are starting to turn up.

I'll look for pits - i think the weight will be a good diagnostic. As to a return policy...

I generally check, and just didn't bother this time. potentially very costly oversight on my part, but I haven't talked to the seller, he may take it back.

Do any of the services authentic without slabbing? ANACS, PCGS, and IGC don't seem to.

NCS will. They are the NGC conservation company.

ANACS will authenticate without grading but it costs the same. Just mark authenticate only on the invoice.

I seem to recall that there was at least one date in which a 180 degree rotation existed but I don't know what year it was on.

I have to admit that if this is a fake it is much better than most that you see on eBay. I think the weight is going to be important.

From the pic, my main concern is that the rim on the SL side looks rough.

Doing your homework after the test is better than not doing it at all. Usually, we do our homework first.

For what you wasted on this piece of junk, you could have bought a copy of the Breen Encyclopedia and spent a night in a motel at an ANA convention.

For many collectors, the habit becomes an addiction that overrides reason. You just had to have the coin. You could not resist. You could not say "no." You gave in to a desire that you could not control.

If you were rational about collecting, if it were really just a hobby, you would save your money and go to conventions. Between major coin shows, you would make discrete and moderate purchases from trusted sources, ANA members, dealers from the clubs you belong to, and so on.

What clubs do you belong to?

Are you really participating in the hobby of numismatics, or are you pushing a cart down the aisle of big box store to satisfy a metaphysical emptiness?

If you can step away and take an objective look at the motivations of your actions, this will be the last time you were cheated.

Not much in your post that is constructive and you can do much better than that. IF it is fake, a mistake was made - let us all learn from it. You are, in my opinion, too harsh, and just a bit too arrogant in your reply - have you never believed you were getting a *great* deal, only to feel the sting of reality?

The matter is somewhat complicated.

(1) Yes, I have, many times. That is just one of many reasons why I quit collecting. You will find a thread on Coin Talk:
http://www.cointalk.org/thread11167-why-i-...collecting.html

but

(2) No, never, because I never expected something for nothing. Generally, I did not buy from unvalidated buyers.

(Some exceptions were specifically to test the hypothesis and true to form, they were rip-offs. As a writer, I take on a special responsibility.)

I have never bought anything on eBay.

I spend my money at ANA conventions or with trusted dealers.

With a research interest in ancients -- I am not a collector -- I patronize VCOINS dealers (www.vcoins.com).

For U.S. online, I would look to a hundred ANA members from Heritage to your neighborhood coin shop.

Mike,

Please accept the following with a light heart:


"Mike, uh, maybe you should switch to decaf for a while..."


I am only trying to 'tease' a smile from you.

A friend is someone who knows all about you and loves you anyway...

You always have thought provoking articles in these forums [CoinTalk & CoinPeople] that I always take time to read. I don't always agree; however, I appreciate the thought behind each of your missives.

I believe it was in Tom Robbins' "Jitterbug Perfume" wherein it was said:

"Ehrlecht Da!!"

I probably misspelled that; I believe it means "Lighten up!!"

Jay in Garrison, TX
"...always willing to learn..."

Mike,

I'm not really sure what your point is, and you are presuming far too much about me. I really don't care for your speculations regarding my character or the comparisons to an unhappy person seeking to fill a void through materialistic purchases.

I expected an unremarkable coin, nothing more.

Had I known from the beginning that this coin had a rotated reverse, I would not have bid on it. If it fails the weight test tomorrow, I will be contacting the seller to return it.

If it passes the weight test tomorrow, I will be contacting the seller to discuss splitting the cost of having it authenticated, and if it's junk, my returning it.

If the seller is a jerk about this, I will be investigating what other recourses are available to me.

I am aware that every time I buy a coin off of ebay I am taking a risk because I cannot examine the coin for myself. So far consensus seems to be that it's a fake, but how many would have concluded this without knowing that the reverse was rotated?

I could argue that most of my coins come from coin club auctions, coin shows, (ANA and local coin clubs), and dealers here that I trust rather than ebay, but why bother? Undoubtedly you would find something else to criticize.



Don't you mean a big box store?

I am curious why you present the issue so starkly. Someone may not meet your definition of "participating in the hobby" while getting far more out of it than "pushing a cart down the aisle of [a] big box store to satisfy a metaphysical emptiness".

In answer to your question, I am putting together a type set of U.S. coins because I am interested in owning a set, I am interested in the history of U.S. coinage, and I find many of the designs of the last 200 years compelling. In assembling this set, I am learning about coin series that I did not even know existed. I also find the many details regarding coinage laws, practices, gaffes, and politics to be fascinating. This does have the nasty side effect of meaning I know a little about many coins, but not yet enough to be an expert on any of them.

Hence, I may have purchased a $200 turkey. In the future I'll be giving these coins the same gimlet eye that I had reserved for trade dollars.

Now, given the knowledge that your years in the field should afford you, I'd be greatly edified if you could point out to me what about the coin reveals its fakery.

You have performed no great contribution to an otherwise wonderful hobby with such a missive and hopefully you will reflect upon it and duly retract it humbly so.

I don't know about a hobby being rational rather than emotional but regardless the core of what Mik says here has merit. There is no substitute for buying a coin in person. Even the largest most prominent auction houses cannot accurately describe and picture every coin. Ebay is naturally much worse in terms of average picture quality. So I would agree that the best case is going to as large a show as possible.

But...not everyoen can go to the national shows. I am lucky this year to be able to get to the NY International but it is still costing a pretty penny. There are no chepa motels in or near Manhatten that I want to stay in.

Of course almost every community does have regional and local shows. Our Ancient Coin Club has several dealer members who will ensure you get good quality material.

If possible do go to local shows and local clubs, it will be worth it. I don't think that being in the ANA or any other single organization makes any difference, the personal contact is what counts.

If you must buy online do ask questions, do try to find reliable dealers with a real world presence, and do reward good service. If you are always looking for the best deal without regard for anything else then you will get burned. It's true in hotels and it's true in coins.

Seller replied via ebay: If ANACS says it's a fake, he will refund my money.

So far, so good. on to step two.

Well, to talk about the coin for a moment, from the pics I am not very encouraged about it (but I am encouraged by your contact with the seller).

The shield details looks too detailed as compared to the weakness of the rest of the torso of the obverse device.

As far as learning lessons, a couple of hundred bucks isn't a tremendously expensive lesson both in cautions in online auctions and in seeking help from internet forums. Both can bite you

I think the coin can be fake or real -- certainly without a particular diagnostic it's anybody's guess. I hope that it is real and that you've made a good purchase. It sounds to me as though you have covered the bases with the seller and so your financial exposure is minimal. Good job there.

One of the nice things about coin collecting is that it is an individual hobby. Each collector gets to define what their particular collection will be. They do not have to comply with another's rules. Go forth and enjoy YOUR hobby.

You may want to just take it to a dealer you trust to see what he'd offer for it. Someone who has handled a lot of Seated dollars would be able to spot a fake pretty quickly with the coin in hand.

It's hard to tell much from the pics in the auction but the seller has solid feedback from buyers and sellers both. I wouldn't be overly worried at this point if I were you. If it's an expensive lesson, at least it wasn't an extremely expensive lesson. Lessons learned at the expense of money, blood or hide are usually valuable lessons.

P.S., ignore Mike when he gets pedantic. A stranger's opinion of your motives is apt to be worth a little less than it cost you to read it. ;-)

With all those fancy letters and numbers that you are so pompously proud of, why do I not see you glorious degree in psychology?? Since you seem to think you are expertly qualified to make these accusations about Fjord, then provide some credentials to show your expertise.
And before you ask, no I do not belong to the Mich St. Numismatic Society, nor the ANA, nor any other organization. The only club/organization that I would even consider joining, I haven't because they do not issue their newsletter or web-site in English, and my Serbian is not up to snuff, yet.

The great weigh-in results are here.

Seated Lib. Dollar Weight according to The Redbook, Coinfacts.com, etc:

26.73 grams.

My Dollar Weight:

23.65 grams

Seated Lib. Dollar Diameter according to ibid.:

38.1 mm

My Dollar Diameter:

37.95 mm

Fakety fake fake fake.

The diameter might be "ok", we're talking about a .4% difference. The weight? Over 10% difference from expected. Unlikely. However, if someone has specific details on the weight tolerances of these coins I'll be in your debt.

Now I have the heebie jeebies about the Trade Dollar I purchased at the ANA convention. I'll weigh that fellow tomorrow.

I have half a mind to send this coin to ANACs to see what the result is. I'll contact the seller to see how he wants to proceed.

Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

I measured a bunch of silver quarters as part of a control group a few months ago. The tolerances were quite low per batch of coins but individual coins did vary a fair amount. I'll have to check how much though I think it was still less than 10%.

Can you get the specific gravity (weight of the coin in water). If that's closer to 9 than 10 then you definitely have a base metal fake.

Thanks for sharing your information with us. I knowingly purchased a Chinese fake 1847 SL Dollar earlier this year to study it. I then gave it to my daughter for her collection. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I suspected your piece was a forgery because of the colouring, it is very similar to my daughter's coin. They mostly seem to have a dullish grey tone to them.

I have two authentic SL$'s, one an 1843, and the other a very well beaten up 1859-O that looks like it got shot up during the Civil War in the USA.

If he said he'd only refund your money if ANACS said it was a fake, you may have to send it to ANACS anyway. Sorry to hear the bad news of the light weight. The amount of the difference sounds like it's too high to be ordinary variance.

I was hoping for better news for you but, if that weight is accurate (ie: your scale is good and calibrated down to that range), I think there is not a lot of hope.

At this point, since it is looking more and more fake, I'd probably tap it with a pencil to see if it even rings like silver.

Here are the weight of the quarters. It looks like they are 6.2grams +- .1 So a deviation of less than 2%

Coin # Wt (g)
1 6.283
2 6.17
3 6.193
4 6.123
5 6.247
6 6.203
7 6.143
8 6.21
9 6.147
10 6.09
11 6.177
12 6.087
13 6.37
14 6.237
15 6.16
16 6.217
17 6.19
18 6.14
19 6.2
20 6.107
21 6.13
22 6.097
23 6.303
24 6.297
25 6.27
26 6.302
27 6.267
28 6.137
29 6.117
30 6.183

Thanks for the info. This afternoon I weighed my trade dollar on the same balance.

Official weight according to all sources I can find:

27.2 grams

My weight:

27.18 grams

Deviation: 0.07%, or exactly right, if I round to the nearest tenth of a gram.

Off to ANACS it goes. Photocopies of the submission form and my check are already in my file.

They will almost certainly NOT slab it. If they do, I will let them know how underweight it is.

The won't slab the Trade Dollar or the Seated Dollar?

Why wouldn't they slab the Trade Dollar? If the weight is off by 0.07%, that should be very acceptable. They weren't THAT accurate back then so I'd expect a range of weights.

sorry, my writing was unclear. It's the Seated Dollar that they almost certainly won't slab. The trade dollar by every indication is fine, I weighed it just to reassure myself.

That's what I thought you meant

Coin came back from ANACS today:


Not Genuine, Struck Copy.


No surprise there.

I've contacted the seller to see about returning the coin.

Sorry that it turned out to be a copy. You've had an interesting experience from it and I think we've all learned a little. Thanks for sharing.

I'm sorry about your experiance.I hope it works out for you.We all learned valuable lessons. Learn all you can about the series you want to collect.80% of the Trade dollars on Ebay are fake. However I've bought 2 raw Trade dollars on Ebay.
One was from a real dealer and G6,hard to counterfeit that worn.The other I looked up pictures of mintmark postions on Heritage and saw that this coin matched a known mintmark position, plus 1877 Trade dollars are all type 2 reverses, no berry under the eagles claw.The fakes on Ebay are mostly type 1 including 1877's. I hope ypu get your money back I'll be rooting for you.

I have been following this thread with alot of interest. I live in the Philippines, where virtually EVERY vendor/peddler/street hawker has Morgans, Trade dollars, Seated Libertys, Flowings...you name it! ALSO popular are fake counterstamps, especially the YII on the Columbian, Peruvian and Mexican 8 Reales coins. ALL of them come out of China. They are now even faking the PANDAS, so be careful! I buy coins almost every day (for the past 4 years), and everyone knows me, and will TELL me if a coin is fake or not. I ate a few in the beginning, but they were so rediculously cheap that it was an inexpensive lesson. I ALSO bought a digital scale that fits nicely in my pocket, so everything suspect gets weighed. You MIGHT want to invest $60.-$70. for a good Japanese-made scale. The best one is a "TAMITA",made in Japan. Most coin guides reference the specific coin weight, so you might want to have that bit of info written down somewhere for the coins you are looking for. I knew you had a fake the INSTANT i looked at it. Its good to do the side-by-side comparisons when possible. Some "sellers" will be offering the EXACT same coin, listed several times, or repeated several times. You MAY notice that the shadings, nics and scratches, etc are identical on two differently listed coins of the same year and value. AND....it Doesn't have to be from the same seller! Lastly...IF anyone wants a few specific type fakes for study reference, i will provide them for you at the buying cost and shipping charge to help out fellow collectors.

Hi there, thanks for your helpful comments.

regarding the scale: the weight confirmed it for me, unfortunately I was unable to weigh an auction picture. I could only weigh the coin once I had it in hand. Had I known the coin was struck in a medal orientation, I also wouldn't have bought it - the flip-flopped orientation was my first clue that something was amiss. I'll be gun shy about purchasing a seated lib. from ebay ever again.

I don't know about taking a scale to coin shows, I'd either need a good "tare weight" or find a way to convince the seller remove it from the flip or 2x2 before weighing.

Incidentally, what was it that hollered "fake" as soon as you saw the coin? The color? the strike?

The seller has responded and offered to refund my money. I'm only out some shipping cost and ANACS grading. All's well that ends well.

Regarding fakes for study reference: It's tempting, but I think the legality is questionable. You know and I know that the coins are fake, but since they don't say "COPY" on them they are subject to seizure. This may start a flamewar - opinions vary on the ethics and legality of owning counterfeits.

OF COURSE, YOU CANNOT WEIGH AN EBAY PICTURE, BUT YOU CAN CERTAINLY ASK THE SELLER TO GIVE YOU THE EXACT WEIGHT OF THE COIN BEFORE YOU PLACE A BID? I ALWAYS ASK. NEARLY ALL OF THE FAKES ARE CLONED FROM THE SAME COPIES. IT MAKES THEM FAIRLY EASY TO SPOT. YOUR SELLER PROBABLY GOT HIS FROM AN EBAY AUCTION AS WELL. EBAY WORKS ALMOST AS WELL AS A MASS SPAM MAILING, WITH A CAPTIVE (AND POTENTIAL) BUYER AUDIENCE OF MILLIONS. PUT IT OUT TO ENOUGH PEOPLE, AND SOMEONE WILL BITE. AS FOR WEIGHING AT COIN SHOWS, PEICE OF CAKE. THE CARDBOARD 2X2 WEIGHS 1.5gr, THE PLASTIC FLIPS ARE 2.3gr, AND THE HARD PLASTIC 2X2 CASES ARE 9.9 grams. WEIGH IT AND DEDUCT FOR THE WEIGHT OF THE HOLDER. ANY HONEST DEALER/SELLER SHOULD NOT BE OFFENDED AT THE BUYER WANTING TO AUTHENTICATE HIS PURCHASE? BTW, COLOR IS USUALLY THE MOST OBVIOUS, OR AT LEAST, THE FIRST HINT OF A FAKE. NEARLY ALL HAVE A DULLISH GUNMETAL GREY TONE TO THEM, AND LOOK SORTA LIFELESS. LASTLY, REGARDING OFFERING A DECLARED FAKE/COPY FOR A STUDY COMPARISON, I SEE THEM OFFERED ON EBAY ALL THE TIME. IT SEEMS TO BE OKAY AS LONG AS THE SELLER HAS DECLARED THAT IT IS A KNOWN COPY. CAN ANYONE OUT THERE CONFIRM OR CLARIFY THIS?

I beg your pardon there Paul - color and mass should not, in fact never be considered as one of "easy" ways to detect counterfeited coins.

If a particular coin date type cost a few grand and other similar worn coins cost just a few dollars, what happen if I melt a few of those worn coins and make a brand new counterfeit? Mass test is out of the window.

Color test? We still have difficulty telling the difference between artifical toning and genuine toning so that's another one out of the window. It is even worse if the above method of melting previous coins were to be used in such counterfeited coins. Some of the best examples are the Korean 1 whan and 5 yang as the metal used in such coins is exactly the same as a typical silver Japanese yen at that time. The only difference is the value they carry - a typical Japanese yen, worn or whatever damaged grade could be both cheaply at less than 20dollars whereas a worn / damaged Korean whan / yang screams over a few hundred. Chances of melting down old Japanese silver yen for such counterfeiting? Too common.

One should remember that the more we try to expose counterfeit coins, the more counterfeiters learn. We instead are educating the counterfeiters how to produce better copies, which is indeed a sad story.

I have a few world modern counterfeited coins that pass both mass test and color test and that is enough to fool most machines. The only thing that failed so far in all of them is the detail test, that is if one really takes the time to check.

Like or not the answer to this thread is slabs are often the way to go. Or a major dealer.

I beg YOUR pardon there, qx, but i didn't say that color and mass were AN easy way to spot a fake, but a "fairly easy" way, and, (i beg your pardon again) color and mass ARE a DEAD GIVAWAY to MOST fakes. I live in the land of fakes, clones and counterfeits, and have tried to spot and collect every variety that i could, just to build a reference to whats "out there", so that i might be able to help someone else from getting duped sometime. And, i don't particularly agree with your reasoning on color, by using Natural, as opposed to artificial toning as a comparison? You would toss the color test out the window on that reasoning? Your comparison of the Korean coins to the Japanese yen doesn't exactly hold up as a valid comparison either, as you are comparing apples to oranges. The Korean coins were minted in MUCH lesser numbers, with a MUCH lesser known population. I lived in Korea for thirteen years, was Married to a Korean lady for 23years, and my former Fath-in-law was a MAJOR collector of both the Japanese and Korean coins. Although i am certainly no expert, i MAY have had a tad bit more exposure to these types of coins. It helped being 80% fluent in Hangul, as well. I would be Very interested in knowing what world modern counterfeits you have that pass both the mass and color tests, and Not the "detail' tests? You could maybe help to keep other ebayers safe from these fakes that are known to you? I'm sure it would be much appreciated! Anyway, i surely did appreciate your insight and comments! Kam sa ham nida! BTW, what would you think of starting a thread for people to list and show all of the counterfeits/fakes they know of? I think it would be an awsome thread to help people to be on the lookout?

It took some doing, but I finally got pictures of myself destroying two fake Seated Dollars. I cut them with giant bolt shears.

One was an 1846 with medalic orientation.

The other was an 1847.

Should have sent them to me. I might have dremeled them up some and used them for CP Mint Planchets.

On second thought, maybe I shouldn't be offering to receive counterfeit coins in the mail...never mind...

Sic semper:

Proper storage for fakes.

Read the whole article at www.michigancoinclub.org. Click on Articles Archive. Scroll down to "Fake Coins and Counterfeit Collectors." This is the central theme of my talk at the 2004 ANA Convention in Pittsburgh.

Well, hopefully the last post in this saga.

The seller received the coin in return and refunded my money today.

Relatively inexpensive lesson in fakes, I'm only out the ANACs fee.

The American Numismatic Association sells a self study course in Detecting Altered and Counterfeit Coins. For the price of your "lesson" you could have actually added to your body of knowledge and had something to show for it.

Which sounds better:
a. I earned a certificate from the American Numnismatic Association
b. I got cheated on eBay -- but I learned a lesson.

I value my money because I hold myself and my clients, customers and employers in high regard. I trade value for value based on the best of my ability to gain and apply knowledge through experience and judgement -- and then to deliver that to those who pay for it. I am a numismatist because I believe that money is the concretization of the highest virtues of humanity.

We all make mistakes. We all know the cliche, "to err is human." We live and learn. On the shop floor, we say that good judgment comes from experience, but unfortunately experience comes from bad judgment. That said, from where I sit, the tagline "Sell me stuff" is an invitation to financial loss.

I'm glad it turned out relatively well for you.And props to an honest seller.

Michael, your condescending behavior is the only thing about this entire process that has left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't know what it is you don't like about me, but your sneers obscure otherwise helpful advice. I've been more than polite to you about this, but this has gone on for long enough.

You speak with great certainty about the virtues of humanity, what a tragedy that you are too childish to emulate them.

I hope you've enjoyed ruining my afternoon. I sincerely hope never to hear from you again.

Glad it work out for you Fjord. I could care less for the opinions of some know-it-all people on this site. I think you did good by getting a refund.
You didn't get rip off like alot of people would have.

Glad it worked out with the seller for you, a pretty decent guy to refund you your dough, I wonder if he'll put it back on ebay in a few weeks?

I think this was a good process for you. You learned about a certain type of counterfeit. You found a person who appears to be an honest seller - a terrific resource in any venue. For a small amount of money you had an interesting journey. Glad that you shared it with us.