The top one has (obverse) a portrait facing (looks like a hound dog), and what looks like "DEI . IUTITIA" (God and Justice?) in the obverse legend. The reverse legend reads "IMPERATOR" and I struggle to decipher the bit in the middle. It is silver, thin, and roughly the size of a UK penny.

The botton one has (obverse) a portrait facing right with the legend IMP. FEDERICUS. The reverse has a type of city view (similar to coinage of Hamburg but not quite the same) with what looks to be the initials IGA on the left and MVM on the right. It is silver, thin, and roughly the same size of a US dime.

I've had these two for years now and every now and again I try to identify them, so far without any luck. I am almost certain that they are German, but I don't have reference books for small denomination coinage of that era from that area. I could be well out though. The only thing I am positive about is that they are not French

Any help would be appreciated.





Ian

It looks like a medieval british coin, I'm not too sure though.

TKC!

Nope. THEY (there are two coins) are not British in origin. Continental Europe they are, probably two different German States....but which?

I would look at the Holy Roman Emperors, especially those named Fred

Both under crusader and regular issues

That is the strong likelyhood for the second coin, for sure. I've had that as a starting point since day one though . One problem as you know is the actual scope of possible minting locations. Another being the amount of available time and mental eneregy I have to devote to the task.

In another forum someone mentioned Hungary as being a possibility for the first coin. Another mentioned the possibility of it being from four different Italian States. One of these days someone with the right book(s) or numismatic interest will see my pleas, and provide an answer to this particular mystery/ misery of mine (I hope).

Ian

Yes, the key is persistence. If you are dedicated enough you can always get photocopies of various obscure articles of coins you think are similar until one day you find the right one

Or you can wait, wait patiently and the answer will arrive...

Frederick the Wise?

That's the first Frederick i ever think of.

I've tried the first. I'm suffering from the effects of the second. Ah well, I should maybe put them back into the dark for another couple of years.

One day though.........

Ian

More like `Frederick the Unheard of' judging by the number of books and catalogues i've ploughed through in trying to id that pair over the past decade. I've just not hit the right book(s) .....yet.

success!!

Jim Roberts just positively I.D'd both coins.

The first is from the Republic of Modena (Italy) circa 1226-1293 . The legend is actually DE MVTINA and not quite as I had surmised. The reverse has FDC in the centre referring to Frederick II Holy Roman Emperor.

The second is from the Commune of Bergamo during the late13th / early 14th century, struck in the name of the same emperor but (as Jim says) maybe at a later date. The letters either side of the towers are (BER) GA | MUM The letters in brackets were apparently combined to produce an `F' like symbol.

Gosh isn't it all soooo easy when you know what it is that you are looking at.

My hat is off to Jim He is a veritable mine of numismatic information (and my hero!). He's the guy who wrote the reference book `The Silver Coins of Medieval France ' (one of my most prized possessions) and who also recently managed to provide an amazing resource concerning mediaeval German coins online :

http://www.someoldcoins.org/saur/index.html

Anyone wanting a quick link to info concerning who / what Frederick II was, try this link:

http://tinyurl.com/83dyc

Ian
`A VERY Happy Bunny'

From dealing with hammered coins i'm well aware of the number 1 rule of identification;

1) "It's always easier to identify and read the writing when you know what it's supposed to say"

Congrats, now you know what reference book to buy next

lol! oh sooo true.

I shied away from mediaeval coins for years just for that reason. I simply couldn't make any sense of the legends. It actually troubled me that other people didn't seem to have any problem making out what these runic looking letters were. :-)

As you can see, I still struggle with these legends but i'm getting better with practice (I think) :-)

Yep. Jim did provide a few reference sources for me to follow up on.

However, I don't know exactly where i'm going to get hold of `De Monetis Italiae' (published in1750) but I wouldn't discount the possibility. There just might be something to this `patience' thing you mentioned after all. ;-)

I still have difficulties with my Edward 1d's....and then it hits you...write it down and catalogue it.
I've currently got a stack to go through as well as a load of Roman....proper numismatics eh !!!!!