I have recently bought this coin.
I am mostly a banknote collector, so I have a bit of difficulty grading this coin.
It would also be interesting to get an estimation of its value.Hope to get some input.
// Joakim
Full Version: Need help with a double eagle 1904
Hi,
I have recently bought this coin.
I am mostly a banknote collector, so I have a bit of difficulty grading this coin. It would also be interesting to get an estimation of its value.
Hope to get some input.
// Joakim
I have recently bought this coin.
I am mostly a banknote collector, so I have a bit of difficulty grading this coin.
It would also be interesting to get an estimation of its value.Hope to get some input.
// Joakim
I dont see the photo!!??
Hi again,
If you have problems seing the photo, then right-click with the mouse were the photo should be, then go to properties and there you get the url.
Alternatively here is the adress to the photo:
http://hem.passagen.se/stockholms.myntklub...leeagle1904.jpg
Hope this will be of help.
//Joakim
If you have problems seing the photo, then right-click with the mouse were the photo should be, then go to properties and there you get the url.
Alternatively here is the adress to the photo:
http://hem.passagen.se/stockholms.myntklub...leeagle1904.jpg
Hope this will be of help.
//Joakim
QUOTE(bifrost @ Oct 11 2005, 03:01 AM)
Hi,
I have recently bought this coin.
I am mostly a banknote collector, so I have a bit of difficulty grading this coin. It would also be interesting to get an estimation of its value.
Hope to get some input.
// Joakim
[right][snapback]96711[/snapback][/right]
I have recently bought this coin.
I am mostly a banknote collector, so I have a bit of difficulty grading this coin.
It would also be interesting to get an estimation of its value.Hope to get some input.
// Joakim
[right][snapback]96711[/snapback][/right]
As what grade did you buy it?
MS for sure. As for what number........couldn't tell you.
Wait for someone like Jtryka.
Wait for someone like Jtryka.
Depends upon who would slab it
Because the line accros the face is distracting
so I would grade it myself as MS 63
Because the line accros the face is distracting
so I would grade it myself as MS 63
This one looks very strange to me, perhaps it's the lighting used in the photos, but something doesn't look right. There are two small marks, one above the 0 in the date and another near the dentils by the first star. If these marks are raised, that would help identify the authenticity of this coin. The fields have a somewhat scuffed appearance, which on gold would require a number of bagmarks on the high points, but on this coin there appear to be none. The details on this coin are very good, but for detail that fine (like an MS-65) there should be much more luster and absolutely clear fields. On the reverse, the details are great, but the tail feathers on the eagle don't look right to me. There are a lot of excellent counterfeit double eagles around, especially the 1904 (which is the most common date of Type 3 double eagle, hence the easiest to pass since very few people scrutinize them as other dates). In fact, I bought a near perfect counterfeit 1904 double eagle from Germany about 2 years ago. I can't say for certain, but for me this one doesn't pass the "smell" test. I would advise either sending it to be certified, or taking it in person to a knowledgable dealer in your area for authentication. If the coin is fake, the good news is that most of the high quality fakes I've seen did contain the correct weight and fineness of gold (or at least very close), so at a minimum you have just under an ounce of gold.
If any of you want to compare, I looked at this coin vs. my 1903 double eagle which is genuine and an MS-63. 1903 Obverse
1903 Reverse
If any of you want to compare, I looked at this coin vs. my 1903 double eagle which is genuine and an MS-63. 1903 Obverse
1903 Reverse
Just curious
What slabber declared that a MS 63 ?
What slabber declared that a MS 63 ?
NGC.
QUOTE(jtryka @ Oct 11 2005, 08:45 PM)
NGC.
[right][snapback]96938[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]96938[/snapback][/right]
Thanks
me and my friend a retired coindealer have been buying unslabbed coins in germany france spain etc and had them NGC slabbed
So we are kind of calibrated to know what to expect
We are obviously very very conservative because on average we are one to two
units lower then the slabbed coins coming back from NGC and this means that
all surprises in grade are allways good surprises
My friend choose NGC for what seems very good reasons
I still go with the motto
Buy the coin not the slab
QUOTE(jtryka @ Oct 11 2005, 01:37 PM)
This one looks very strange to me, perhaps it's the lighting used in the photos, but something doesn't look right. There are two small marks, one above the 0 in the date and another near the dentils by the first star. If these marks are raised, that would help identify the authenticity of this coin. The fields have a somewhat scuffed appearance, which on gold would require a number of bagmarks on the high points, but on this coin there appear to be none. The details on this coin are very good, but for detail that fine (like an MS-65) there should be much more luster and absolutely clear fields. On the reverse, the details are great, but the tail feathers on the eagle don't look right to me. There are a lot of excellent counterfeit double eagles around, especially the 1904 (which is the most common date of Type 3 double eagle, hence the easiest to pass since very few people scrutinize them as other dates). In fact, I bought a near perfect counterfeit 1904 double eagle from Germany about 2 years ago. I can't say for certain, but for me this one doesn't pass the "smell" test. I would advise either sending it to be certified, or taking it in person to a knowledgable dealer in your area for authentication. If the coin is fake, the good news is that most of the high quality fakes I've seen did contain the correct weight and fineness of gold (or at least very close), so at a minimum you have just under an ounce of gold.
If any of you want to compare, I looked at this coin vs. my 1903 double eagle which is genuine and an MS-63. 1903 Obverse
1903 Reverse
[right][snapback]96933[/snapback][/right]
If any of you want to compare, I looked at this coin vs. my 1903 double eagle which is genuine and an MS-63. 1903 Obverse
1903 Reverse
[right][snapback]96933[/snapback][/right]
Yes I do agree this coin does look weird... do you happen to have an ounces scale that you might be able to weigh it on? It might also be whizzed and dipped that could explain the lack or ANY marks in the feilds where they should be. but without having this con in hand I could not tell you.
QUOTE(ageka @ Oct 11 2005, 02:02 PM)
Thanks
me and my friend a retired coindealer have been buying unslabbed coins in germany france spain etc and had them NGC slabbed
So we are kind of calibrated to know what to expect
We are obviously very very conservative because on average we are one to two
units lower then the slabbed coins coming back from NGC and this means that
all surprises in grade are allways good surprises
My friend choose NGC for what seems very good reasons
I still go with the motto
Buy the coin not the slab
[right][snapback]96944[/snapback][/right]
me and my friend a retired coindealer have been buying unslabbed coins in germany france spain etc and had them NGC slabbed
So we are kind of calibrated to know what to expect
We are obviously very very conservative because on average we are one to two
units lower then the slabbed coins coming back from NGC and this means that
all surprises in grade are allways good surprises
My friend choose NGC for what seems very good reasons
I still go with the motto
Buy the coin not the slab
[right][snapback]96944[/snapback][/right]
In general, I've found that grading in Europe is much more conservative that it is in the US, so I am not surprised at your statements. Also, it's important to remember that gold coins are very difficult to accurately grade from photos as bag marks and minor hits to the surface are greatly amplified as compared to looking at the coin in hand. That is another reason why the 1904 double eagle which is the focus of this thread puzzles me.
QUOTE(LostDutchman @ Oct 11 2005, 09:07 PM)
Yes I do agree this coin does look weird... do you happen to have an ounces scale that you might be able to weigh it on? It might also be whizzed and dipped that could explain the lack or ANY marks in the feilds where they should be. but without having this con in hand I could not tell you.
[right][snapback]96946[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]96946[/snapback][/right]
There is no lack of marks in the fields in fact there are marks on the 10 o'clock positiion of the obverse
Also this may be one of those pseudo prooflike coins you see once in a while after they upgraded the polishing on their moulds
I must echo what's already been said. The coin looks wrong to me. Its either not genuine or has been polished. Or both.
Looks a lil too perfect...If it is real, very nice coin
My initial reaction is it looks too new! Sharper than i'd expect.
When I grade my own coins, I look at the detail of the coin first, then marks, then finnish, I say (By the photo) It appears to be around a MS63. As memtioned the coin would have to be in hand to realy varifiy. 
Ok, here is a side by side.....
Note the color....Unc gold coins have a very distinctive color...the coin posted for oppinions is not the right color. Coins that have been dipped or that have been cleaned in some other way show this color. I also can not see any luster...which is not a good sign...It might be the camera but I feel that this coin has been at least messed with if it is real. This coin should show bag marks....like morgan dollars these coins were loaded into bags with shovels and then thrown into the back of a horse drawn cart and moved to banks. Best advice I can tell you is send it into NGC and see what they have to say...the worst thing they can do is bodybag it and send it back to you...
Note the color....Unc gold coins have a very distinctive color...the coin posted for oppinions is not the right color. Coins that have been dipped or that have been cleaned in some other way show this color. I also can not see any luster...which is not a good sign...It might be the camera but I feel that this coin has been at least messed with if it is real. This coin should show bag marks....like morgan dollars these coins were loaded into bags with shovels and then thrown into the back of a horse drawn cart and moved to banks. Best advice I can tell you is send it into NGC and see what they have to say...the worst thing they can do is bodybag it and send it back to you...
Coin Police..
I LOVE these types of discussions!!
I LOVE these types of discussions!!
Looks genuine but whizzed. May have been mounted in a bezel for awhile, hence the polishing. Bezel mounted coins often get the Fabuluster cloth treatment and the rouge in the cloth wipes away bag marks along with the luster that the bag marks were defacing.
Luckily, the coin doesn't appear to have been 'power whizzed' on a wheel buff, but it still looks polished to me.
Luckily, the coin doesn't appear to have been 'power whizzed' on a wheel buff, but it still looks polished to me.
I don't like the color -- you should definitely weigh it -- I hope you didn't acquire this piece from China...
QUOTE(tommyd @ Oct 11 2005, 08:24 PM)
I don't like the color -- you should definitely weigh it -- I hope you didn't acquire this piece from China...
[right][snapback]97438[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]97438[/snapback][/right]
These Chinese AFAIK only make copies of silver coins.
The most common "counterfeit" gold coins that I know of were from Lebanon in the 1950s and 60s, made for trade purposes. Those included US, UK, Canadian, among other commonly seen gold coins. All were struck in correct weight, and often of better fineness.
Thanks for all the responce I have got
I must say that the pictures I sent was not the best, as I have had some problems with the macro function on the camera. I have now taken some new pictures of the 20 dollar this time with a scanner.
If you do not se the photo here is the link: http://hem.passagen.se/stockholms.myntklub...dollars1904.jpg
I hope this will help. The coin weighs 33.4 grams and was bought at a noted scandinavian auction firm. I hope it is not a fake, as I like the coin.
In Sweden were I live the higher grades are only EF, EF/Unc or Unc (in translation), and the opinion seems that no older gold coin can be Unc as the metall is to soft. This coin was graded EF by the auctionhouse, but as I can only se small and light scratches at the front but not any ones on the back I thought the grade must be higher and I think the grading here is a bit to consevative. It is also interesting to know the grade in US. as it is a coin from there.
So MS63 seems to be the general opinion on quality?
//Joakim
I must say that the pictures I sent was not the best, as I have had some problems with the macro function on the camera. I have now taken some new pictures of the 20 dollar this time with a scanner.
If you do not se the photo here is the link: http://hem.passagen.se/stockholms.myntklub...dollars1904.jpg
I hope this will help. The coin weighs 33.4 grams and was bought at a noted scandinavian auction firm. I hope it is not a fake, as I like the coin.
In Sweden were I live the higher grades are only EF, EF/Unc or Unc (in translation), and the opinion seems that no older gold coin can be Unc as the metall is to soft. This coin was graded EF by the auctionhouse, but as I can only se small and light scratches at the front but not any ones on the back I thought the grade must be higher and I think the grading here is a bit to consevative. It is also interesting to know the grade in US. as it is a coin from there.
So MS63 seems to be the general opinion on quality?
//Joakim
The weight in the Red book says......33.436 grams. or..96750 Oz.
The Red book says the 1904 in MS63 (If it is real and a 63), lists the coin for $900.00 RAW, and has a very high mintage of 6,256.699 made and (98) Proofs made. That is just a near-about price.Hope that helps??
QUOTE(bifrost @ Oct 12 2005, 06:05 AM)
So MS63 seems to be the general opinion on quality?
[right][snapback]97759[/snapback][/right]
NO! I still think t has been tampered with...the haze around the edge in the latest picture is a sign of cleaning....I think EF cleaned is correct.
33.4 grams is the correct weight, but as others have said it appears to be cleaned, so an EF grade is likely accurate. This is the most common Type 3 Lib, so it really doesn't achieve a premium value until you hit MS-63 or higher. At EF it's probably worth in the range of $550 to $600 based on gold at $480.
By the way, the second photo looks a whole lot better!
By the way, the second photo looks a whole lot better!
Common man
the stars are completely integrated in the color
If you mean cleaned you must mean dipping
and dipping selfmends itself in 5 to 10 years time
This coin looks a solid MS 63 or better
the stars are completely integrated in the color
If you mean cleaned you must mean dipping
and dipping selfmends itself in 5 to 10 years time
This coin looks a solid MS 63 or better
but after a cleaning the coin will never grade MS63 by any grading company....coins do over time get over a dip bath....but that is by retoning....gold does not tone....if you want a true answer send it to a grading serverice...
QUOTE(LostDutchman @ Oct 12 2005, 08:32 PM)
but after a cleaning the coin will never grade MS63 by any grading company....coins do over time get over a dip bath....but that is by retoning....gold does not tone....if you want a true answer send it to a grading serverice...
[right][snapback]97915[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]97915[/snapback][/right]
common
some grading companies will accept retoned gold coins
and I live in a country were dollars and yen and gold coin exchanges are rated as equivalent for money exchangers
In this system I know at least two ways to achieve non cleaned XF grade
giving complete godprice
QUOTE(ageka @ Oct 12 2005, 02:54 PM)
common
some grading companies will accept retoned gold coins
and I live in a country were dollars and yen and gold coin exchanges are rated as equivalent for money exchangers
In this system I know at least two ways to achieve non cleaned XF grade
giving complete godprice
[right][snapback]98049[/snapback][/right]
some grading companies will accept retoned gold coins
and I live in a country were dollars and yen and gold coin exchanges are rated as equivalent for money exchangers
In this system I know at least two ways to achieve non cleaned XF grade
giving complete godprice
[right][snapback]98049[/snapback][/right]
Which companies are those??? the only brand name company that I know of that will slab cleaned coins is ANACS
NCS will also slab cleaned coins.
I still think this coin has been polished, not dipped. There is no way in the world this coin is MS-63.
This is what an MS-63 looks like:
1899 $20 NGC MS-63
I still think this coin has been polished, not dipped. There is no way in the world this coin is MS-63.
This is what an MS-63 looks like:
1899 $20 NGC MS-63
My friend is a retired american coindealer Here is his analyses concurring with my belgian opinion
NOT cleaned
Not that I can tell. The image is dithered (missing a bit of information by process of
whatever made or last altered it trying to make it's size more manageable) so it's a bit
difficult to be certain. Some dithered images, such as this one, are the equivilent of
having someone print them on loosly woven cloth - there are tiny dots missing at
equal intervals throughout the entire image.
I circled the only three areas I could find that were of any concern to me. The cheek
may be a die crack but it's unusual that it doesn't extend beyond the device and into
the field - so - not sure. The other two are anybody's guess but don't appear to be
serious.
like I said before send it to a grading company....from the pictures provided....I still say that coin has been cleaned
QUOTE(LostDutchman @ Oct 13 2005, 07:36 PM)
like I said before send it to a grading company....from the pictures provided....I still say that coin has been cleaned
[right][snapback]98780[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]98780[/snapback][/right]
It is easy for you to say to get it graded
The person lives in Sweden so I assume he has about the same problems I would have from Belgium
35 euro to get it over by DHL and 25 for grading and another 35 Euro to get it back
That is about 125 dollars
On top of that there are untold forms to fill in that the coin is send for repair to the USA and not exported or re emported but simply in transit under no violation of export and import laws and if I remember correctly repair of originals is one off the transit types
I've never seen a die crack on a gold coin in the center of the coin that doesn't extend to the edges. That is likely a rub on the cheek or a bag mark. I don't think anyone can say for sure without seeing it in hand, though I still believe it's been cleaned, and harshly at that. As for your coin dealer friend, I appreciate the input, however I have seen probably 80% of American coin dealers selling cleaned or whizzed coins as "uncleaned original coins" that no offense to him or lostdutchman, it really doesn't mean much.
QUOTE(bifrost @ Oct 12 2005, 01:05 PM)
Thanks for all the responce I have got
I must say that the pictures I sent was not the best, as I have had some problems with the macro function on the camera. I have now taken some new pictures of the 20 dollar this time with a scanner.
If you do not se the photo here is the link: http://hem.passagen.se/stockholms.myntklub...dollars1904.jpg
I hope this will help. The coin weighs 33.4 grams and was bought at a noted scandinavian auction firm. I hope it is not a fake, as I like the coin.
In Sweden were I live the higher grades are only EF, EF/Unc or Unc (in translation), and the opinion seems that no older gold coin can be Unc as the metall is to soft. This coin was graded EF by the auctionhouse, but as I can only se small and light scratches at the front but not any ones on the back I thought the grade must be higher and I think the grading here is a bit to consevative. It is also interesting to know the grade in US. as it is a coin from there.
So MS63 seems to be the general opinion on quality?
//Joakim
[right][snapback]97759[/snapback][/right]
I must say that the pictures I sent was not the best, as I have had some problems with the macro function on the camera. I have now taken some new pictures of the 20 dollar this time with a scanner.
If you do not se the photo here is the link: http://hem.passagen.se/stockholms.myntklub...dollars1904.jpg
I hope this will help. The coin weighs 33.4 grams and was bought at a noted scandinavian auction firm. I hope it is not a fake, as I like the coin.
In Sweden were I live the higher grades are only EF, EF/Unc or Unc (in translation), and the opinion seems that no older gold coin can be Unc as the metall is to soft. This coin was graded EF by the auctionhouse, but as I can only se small and light scratches at the front but not any ones on the back I thought the grade must be higher and I think the grading here is a bit to consevative. It is also interesting to know the grade in US. as it is a coin from there.
So MS63 seems to be the general opinion on quality?
//Joakim
[right][snapback]97759[/snapback][/right]
I bought a french 100 FF angel coin from Jean Elsen as XF
Me and my friend graded it as MS 64
In Europe any kind of bagmark will send it into the XF category whilst in the US the most battered and scarred coin still makes MS 60 for bagmarks without wear
I think yours might come back MS 63 with diecrack or something alike
QUOTE(jtryka @ Oct 13 2005, 01:23 PM)
I've never seen a die crack on a gold coin in the center of the coin that doesn't extend to the edges. That is likely a rub on the cheek or a bag mark. I don't think anyone can say for sure without seeing it in hand, though I still believe it's been cleaned, and harshly at that. As for your coin dealer friend, I appreciate the input, however I have seen probably 80% of American coin dealers selling cleaned or whizzed coins as "uncleaned original coins" that no offense to him or lostdutchman, it really doesn't mean much.
[right][snapback]98825[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]98825[/snapback][/right]
If I choose to sell a cleaned coin I mark it as such but I go to shows all the time and you do see a lot of coins that aren't marked as cleaned being sold and sometimes sold as Uncirculated.....
QUOTE(jtryka @ Oct 13 2005, 08:23 PM)
I've never seen a die crack on a gold coin in the center of the coin that doesn't extend to the edges. That is likely a rub on the cheek or a bag mark. I don't think anyone can say for sure without seeing it in hand, though I still believe it's been cleaned, and harshly at that. As for your coin dealer friend, I appreciate the input, however I have seen probably 80% of American coin dealers selling cleaned or whizzed coins as "uncleaned original coins" that no offense to him or lostdutchman, it really doesn't mean much.
[right][snapback]98825[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]98825[/snapback][/right]
I agree completely
I have never ever been fooled in real life because I have my LED loupe 10X magnification with me and I have never ever been fooled by a scanner picture
However both of us have been fooled by photos and gotten jewellery cleaned for MS announced grade and the cleaning was glared out by overlighting the coin
Now on this specimen we both independently manipulated the pictures and any harsh cleaning would have eliminated the scratch on the face and would have surrounded the stars with original lustre
But the cleaned versus uncleaned is an intresting discussion
Hi again,
It is a really interesting discussion about the 20 USD coin. It is right that it is difficult for me to get the coin graded here in Sweden as it is a different grading system. However my mother is travelling to Toronto by the end of this month. I shall ask her to bring the coin with her and take it to a coin dealer for geting a grading opinion. I agree that it is difficult to get a good idea from a photo or a scan. For myself even the lover EF grade would make the coin a good bought, if it is a MS-63 I am even happier! I shall return with a post when I get the grading information from toronto.
Best Regards and thanks for all the interest
// Joakim
It is a really interesting discussion about the 20 USD coin. It is right that it is difficult for me to get the coin graded here in Sweden as it is a different grading system. However my mother is travelling to Toronto by the end of this month. I shall ask her to bring the coin with her and take it to a coin dealer for geting a grading opinion. I agree that it is difficult to get a good idea from a photo or a scan. For myself even the lover EF grade would make the coin a good bought, if it is a MS-63 I am even happier! I shall return with a post when I get the grading information from toronto.
Best Regards and thanks for all the interest
// Joakim
Well now I have got the information that in two Toronto coinshops thought the coin was MS62 and MS63 respectively. I see on the PCGS site that there is a big price difference between this two grades.
// Joakim
// Joakim
the best thing I can tell you is to send it in to either PCGS or NGC.....if their is such a big price jump the coin NEEDS to be in a holder
It has to be slabbed at all costs... of course you, if you are going to be the seller wants to grade it at a higher margin and a buyer would want to pay little less, so will grade at all extremes.
It would be better off to be graded, even if I am quite opposed on grading itself. Afterall, price does matter doesn't it?
It would be better off to be graded, even if I am quite opposed on grading itself. Afterall, price does matter doesn't it?
Great thread everyone! I have learned a little bit from this one.
Thanks for the info. I shall consider doing it, at least if I am going to sell it. When I take a trip to the US. I shall certainly do it. For the moment I think to keep it, even though I am mostly a banknote collector.
Thank“s
//Joakim
Thank“s
//Joakim
QUOTE(bifrost @ Nov 15 2005, 05:19 AM)
even though I am mostly a banknote collector.
[right][snapback]122175[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]122175[/snapback][/right]
Well, I would be happy to exchange that coin for a 1914 $20 note if you want, after all, those notes were redeemable in gold!
I agree with the statements above though, you should have it certified by either NGC or PCGS, as those two are the standard. If I were you, I would hope for MS-62, and then be happy with an MS-63, since I've found that it's really hard to get a Liberty double eagle to grade that high, which explains the sizable jump in price between the two grades. Good luck!
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