Also I would like to know the earliest name on a coin, and the earliest portrait of a british king....I assume these would be Celtic coins. I am wondering who is the earliest brit on a coin, and the earliest known person to mint a coin there...

This is what I am thinking:

Earliest coins to be minted would be manufactured in Kent, perhaps from the end of the second century BC, Thurrock Potins with a classical theme bearing the head of Apollo on the obverse and a butting bull reverse.

Earliest name on a coin would be 'Commios', king of the Atrebates in Britain. He was issuing coins from Calleva Atrebatum (Silchester). ...possibly 'Commius' mentioned during the time of roman invasion by Caesar ? Then would be Tincomarus and Eppillus first century BC. Dubnovellaunus, who may have held territory to the north of the Thames at the same time.

Would there be earlier coins known? Did I miss any other earlier names?



Thanks

Oohh.. can't wait to hear the answer. I bet Clive and SM will have some good candidates.

Also, if anyone knows, who might be the earliest known Celtic ruler...in Britain...known as a fact and not legendary.

The problem with Celtic rulers in Britain is as you note, they are legendary, more passed down and recorded by the Romans. It is a known fact that history,from ancient to modern, often forgets the vanquished. Notice in volumes on early British coinages that the Celtic issues are dealt with more as conjecture than known fact.

However this is not just with Celtic coinages in Britain, it actually extends much further into the last millennium with early Scottish coinages, Irish etc. For instance in my British specialty, Scottish, it is widely believed that David I(1124-1153) was the first Scottish monarch to issue pennies, but claims have been made for one of the Dalriata kings, as well some conjecture of a Northumbrian mint in Scottish territory.

As far as I can tell, Commios is the earliest king to ID himself on a coin there. I assume there are earlier rulers who left enough evidence of their existence to go further back definitively.

The earlier rulers are a bit hazy in history, it was recorded by the Romans from oral history and has always been subject to doubt.

My Earliest 'English' coin is a 'Varimundus Sceat', one of the first coins to be minted once the Romans left Britain, I cannot comment much on Celtic coinage as that is not in my collecting spectrum. The aforementioned sceat dates to approximately 660 and is made Gold, although it is mixed slightly with silver and has traces of other metals, it is Spink 772 for all those interested. These coins that were minted when the Romans left are, in my eyes, some of the first English coins to be minted. However, if you were to say first British coin you would be looking sometime in more modern times as the first United Kingdom coins were in Queen Anne's reign.

As for the first portrait of a Celtic King, who knows, there is so little known about them and the coins that we don't know who's on a large amount of them! They are often described as having an obverse design of a head with a series of runic inscriptions rather than a monarch that we can identify.

Commius/Commios is thought to be the son of Caesar's Commius but there are rumours that Commius is in fact a well known Gaulish Chieftain, however this has chronological issues.

So the first known person to mint coins on these lands was a person by the name of Commius, followed by his son; Tincommius.

Whereas the first Kings of All England coins aren't seen until the mid-10th Century as the Kingdoms were still prominent features in English politics at the time with Wessex, Mercia and Nortumbria holding the strong points.

Meanwhile I'm happy collecting pennies, sceats and stycas of the Kingdom and All England eras!

Kindest Regards,

Clive.

I might have worded the question wrong, I was referring to the earliest coins minted on the British Isles (the land mass) by Kings or Chieftains that ruled there. Also the earliest KNOWN ruler.

Now the story of Commios, as I understand it, is that he might have been from the continent, drafted by Caesar to go to Britain and prepare them to be taken. Caesar thought that he, being the same in the eyes of a Roman as the 'barbarians' in Britain, might persuade them to give up without a fight or some such thing. It is obvious by the coins found that he set himself up as a local ruler, or had already done so as he was able to gather troops from his tribe that seems to have been in Britain according to accounts. If nothing else, his successors were obviously rulers in Britain and also minted coinage identifying themselves.

I THINK that makes HIM the oldest known ruler (not king of all Briton but A king or chieftain in Briton, one of many) to mint a coin that can be traced to him. I was just assuming that if he was the first to identify himself on a COIN. Then maybe others might have identified themselves some other way, or their existence can be verified in other ways.

I started wondering this after reading the Historia Regum Britanniae written in 1136 by Geoffrey of Monmouth. It chronicles the lives of the kings of the Britons spanning a time of two thousand years, beginning with the Trojans of Homer's Iliad up until the Anglo-Saxons. Now I know this has little to no real historical value but all the same, apparently many of the names seem to have been real kings mentioned in lists of old rulers. Many of the names used ARE mentioned in the histories of other nations such as Brennus who captured Rome in 390 BC. Probably a Gaul borrowed for the story but still a figure known to history to have existed. It seems the history does pull in names of real early kings that might have existed or who are mentioned in other ancient sources.

So as I looked around I found Varimundus, the Kings of Mercia and the Kings of Northhumbria whose coins were VERY interesting. I love the early Anglo Saxon coins but found that coins had been minted long before them by what would, I assume, generally be called the Celts. They have coins that date back well before the invasion by Caesar but none identified who was minting them before Commios...and he was probably influenced by the Roman Denarius.

So it just got me to wondering if I was missing something, if the list goes further back and other early kings can be identified by other means besides a coin inscription and if Commios WAS the earliest identifiable ruler.

Anyway, some of the post roman occupation coins are simply outstanding. Interesting designs, often very attractive in their simplicity. Here is coin I found while looking around that I thought was stunning and simple:





Early Anglo Saxon Secondary silver sceat [c.710-60]
'WODAN' HEAD - Type 30b
obv. Wodan head facing with beard, crosses each side
rev. 2 standing figures with cross in between, 2 pellets above and 6 below,
cross at each side
[see Metcalf 430, N.171, S.844, Abramson P940]

few others I found to be very interesting:









Offa^^

What do you think about the Offa coin with arabic writing on it? How did that happen?

Oh...the REASON why I am so interested is that I am looking to hammer my own coins. I am looking to be true to the English hammered coins like the ones above. The simple nature of the coins are more suited to the way I will be making my dies. More linear work, less depth like the one below which is just a series of lines and dots. I want to use text but I want it to be true to the time period which is going to be the hardest part as I dont want to just copy a legend but create a new one in the same style. I have been studying the way they mint inscriptions and the text styles. As I was researching old English hammered coins I simply started looking further back. The idea was to try to find a known king or ruler who has no coinage from the time period and mint one for him. A fantasy hammered coin of an old ruler. I dont want to go as far back as the celts. I will probably try to stay in the post Roman period but I am having a hard time finding a subject king.

I want my coin to resemble the one below in style but also have inscription...possibly with a rough portrait of a king instead. I will be etching into a metal die in a way that will only allow me to do basic designs and text like most I have posted here. So as I was searching the names of old kings I found Historia Regum Britanniae which dealt with pre-anglo-saxon kings and I just started wondering how far back it could be traced.

Of course only conjecture can answer for certain, but surprisingly much long distance trade existed with Vikings especially trading with the Arab states. Given the distances it appears amazing, but Viking ships are found all the way down rivers in Russia and Ukraine from time to time. Trade also existed betwixt W. Europe and Spain, notably then controlled by the Moors.

Recently a hoard of coins was found in Sweden, with Arab coins.

hehe. I think that is a rough portrait of a king on that coin!


Didn't Vfox make some of his own hammered coins once?

I think that is supposed to be Wodan which is a god based on Odin (or is odin). Such a figure pops up on coins and the like all over.

Odin, as Woden, is mentioned in a Old Saxon Baptismal vow in Vatican Codex pal. 577 along with Thunear (Thor) and Saxnot. The 8th or 9th century vow, intended for Christianizing pagans, is recorded as:

ec forsacho allum dioboles uuercum and uuordum, Thunaer ende Uuöden ende Saxnote ende allum them unholdum the hira genötas sint

Which translates to:

'I renounce all the words and works of the devil, Thunear, Woden and Saxnôt, and all those fiends that are their associates.'



The only problem I am having with the process, oddly enough, is getting the metal I need for the dies....cheap.

Also, just to clarify. I am in no way trying to make a fake coin to pawn off on novice collectors. I just wanted to try my hand at hammering a coin. I see that there are a lot of known Pictish Kings that have no coins made for them...I wonder what a pictish coin would look like