I thought that NGC didn't grade coins with graffiti?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=280216216520

Besides the graffiti, it seems to have a fair degree of wear.

If you are a member, u can check on the grade using the number. But you are absolutely right about your observations. Could be a fake capsule. I've heard this happens from time to time.

Let me say first ive been lucky once or twice with Mr Flying Bostonian,
but this guy really plays the "slab-it-up" game for all its worth.

He seems to send coins out for slabbing/grading, then he lists them on ebay WITHOUT a photo, once he knows the grade ahead of time. Then the listing sits on ebay for days while the slabs are returned, and we only get to see the actual coin towards the end of the listing time. Very frustrating.

Anyone else notice this, or am i going nutty? (squirrel humor.....)

he does sell plastic, but this coin is very nice.

Very precise observation. The coin is definetely not in MS, IMHO.

The coin is real, not a fake slab. Those who wants to see better pictures may find them on Heritage web site, auction 440, lot 51767. I think the coin is NOT nice and extremely overgraded. IMHO.

WCO

Also, the pictures posted in the EBay listing are heavily "enhanced".

What I see is a very nice coin for the type. Can someone post the images of this coin from Heritage? Thank you.

I am not sure what you mean.

To me, the ebay pictures look like they are the Heritage pictures pasted together and reduced in size.

Hi,

Yes, its former Heritage coin, and this coin was listed before, by this seller, and did not get "BUY IT NOW" price that time, and now its on action again.
BTW I won't buy "numbered" coin.

I think coins looks OK for MS63, and really nice, but "17" really makes its ugly, sucks...



GHV

I've never bought any numbered coins, although I tried (but lost). I sort of thought you could just wash it off with a bit of soap and water (not while it is in the slab). I'm curious to know if that is not so, and if it is doable why didn't the seller do that prior to slabbing?

This coin slabbed by other person-X, not by this seller...

Probably person who actually send this coin to NGC tried to do some "cleanings" or so...
Good idea but not easy to make it happen

GHV

Some coins have such numbers written on them in old ink. I think that sometimes collectors (museums?) were in the habit of applying the inked numbers. Others (like Count Hutten-Czapski or Gregory Lisenko) were in the habit of punching their own personal countermarks into their coins. Modern collectors might recoil in horror at such a practice, but earlier collectors did not. Certainly the Grand Duke was quite willing to acquire Hutten-Czapski's countermarked Russian coins for his own collection.

I do not know if the inked numbers can be removed. Possibly they might dissolve in acetone, but then they might leave behind untoned areas on the coin where the ink once was. I'm not sure if that would be any better.

All in all, I do not understand why some members dislike this coin so much -- I have seen them sell stuff on ebay of much worse quality Could be some unhealthy competition issue? :-)

Thank you for the pictures grivna. I really need to learn how to use internet... Now I absolutely love the coin! Hard to find this type in a much better condition. Some softness of strike is characteristic for the type. Have no problem with the overall grade, but still wonder whether it is a normal NGC practice to grade inked coins now. As to the number, it makes the coin somewhat more intriguing to me, because it provides a way to trace its story, if lucky. None of the above should be interpreted, however, as the approval of the insane price this common ruble will prabaly command on ebay.

Softness of strike does not justify this high grade IMHO.



Are you starting to number your coins as well ?

I agree. I like the coin as well.



It is puzzling, isn't it? Supposedly, slabs are good because you know whether you have a nice coin or junk (or so I am told). This one is slabbed, has an unusually high grade assigned, yet slab advocates dump all over it and say it is junk. Why?

Maybe it would be a better coin if someone else was selling it?



I wonder if any of the people knocking the coin own a better example of this type.

As I said, coin is really nice, and looks like grade also fair. Just "17" makes it not perfect.

Recently on Gorniy action similar coin, same date, but MS64 sold out for about 4k which is really good price for today's crazy market. I believe ms63 should go up to 3k. (IF buyer does not care about "pencil" mark).
Will see it soon...

GHV

Ink itself may be easily removed with MS-70 cleaner. Often under the ink there are scratches left by ink pen, i.e. graffity. I used to clean several such coins in the past, they all had more or less graffity. Person, who did the grading of the coin did the right thing by not trying to clean off the ink. Most likely there is graffity under it and coin would not be slabbed at all. Ink hides graffity so coin is in the slab now. It has large areas of weak strike at 2-5 o'clock on reverse (and cortresponding yet not that ugly looking area on obverse) plus rider is half gone. IMHO.

WCO

I regularly check this seller's inventory and I have noticed the same thing. Very often the pictures are not posted until the very end of the auction.
As a matter of fact I was unable to bring up the pictures today. There is a statement that the pictures will be posted at a later time.
Quote:
КАРТИНКИ: Картинки добавлю в течении 1-2 суток с момента начала аукциона.
IMAGES: Images will be added within 1-2 days from the auction start.

What advantage does the seller gain by delaying the posting of pictures?

It seems improbable that people will bid generously on a coin they cannot see.

he starts the auction even before he get the coin back from NGC -- I think speed of the turnaround of capital is the cause.

I agree. He must be working with a limited capital and tries to make his money work hard.

makes sense. also explains shorter than typical auction duration. Must be stressful.

Okay, thank you. That seems like a reasonable explanation.

Let's not forget what is this topic about.
Its about ruble 1818 ms63 with "pencil/ink" mark on it and not about the PERSON who sales it, and how sales.
Whatever he does he knows better.

Thanks,

GHV

I do not see anything wrong that a seller is placing pictures later. Or anyone eager to place a bid in beginning of the action???

OK.

Trip down the memory lane - years ago I bought BU 1818 on Ebay for $50. Common 1818 (like this one on Ebay) is the most often seen coin of the series.

Same here, only it was 1811

Agreed. Here's how I see them appearing in my database:

1811 5%
1812 6%
1813 8%
1814 5%
1815 5%
1816 4%
1817 15%
1818 24%
1819 5%
1820 3%
1821 1%
1822 6%
1823 4%
1824 5%
1825 2%

1818 is easily the most common.

Steve

Yet it might just as easily bring the $3k GHV suggested. It's like 1980 all over again.

1821 was the only one I did not find. Your database explains why

This one brought $3,011.12 from a US buyer. GHV was right on the money.

Incidentally, the seller added new photos of the coin taken in the slab (LINK) which reinforce my belief that this is a nice coin. Evidently, the bidders thought so too.

In my opinion, this is a relatively nice coin. MS63 is a middle grade that implies that the coin has some negatives. This coin seems to have adequate luster, an important factor. The strike is what one would expect from a die that is heavily cracked and therefore has seen a great deal of service. The numbers are probably applied with india ink, a common inventory method by old collectors and museums. India ink is a black carbon pigment in an aqueous solution, far different from the inks that are in use today. Acetone will not dissolve carbon. The carbon has probably penetrated the metal pores, and any attempt to remove it would most likely further damage the coin's surface.

Many coins coming out of old collections had such identification marks, as have already been mentioned, and this fact alone should not disqualify a coin from being slabbed. The degree to which the marks damage the coin's surface and appearance would probably be the factor that determined whether to slab or not to slab. Along this same line, I believe that the grading companies do slab coins with chinese chop marks providing that the marks are not too disfiguring. They are part of the historical context of the coin - and to some, make the coin more interesting, not less.

Marv Finnley

What about 1810 and 1826 ?

1810 and 1826 are birds of a different feather.....

Couldn't have said it better myself

Click to view attachment

Only if you speak of rarity...

What did you mean by this phrase ? (and laughing so "hysterically") ?

Have you ever heard of 1810 and 1826 roubles of same series as 1811-1825?

I can show you some pictures ...

Or just look in Bitkin (if you have one) #97 (Alexander I) and #96 (Nicholas I) - edition 2.

Yes.. my mistake. I was thinking off the top of my head. But indeed there are roubles of this series with those dates, which overlap the preceeding and following ruble types. They are, according to the references, much scarcer than the years listed above.

Like I said, if you speak of rarity... And, 1810 new design is way beyond "scarce" I would say very rare to extremely rare. As to 1826, scarce, but not very hard. I just saw it somewhere (do not remember) on sale for a reasonable amount of money.

The 1826 does appear on rare occasion but the 1810, in my experience, is more
difficult than the 1826. Luckily I picked both up in the mid 1980s when prices were
a little more reasonable than today. I am, however, missing two pieces from this
series: 1814 rouble with no mintmaster initials and the 1818 with eagle of 1810.

RWJ

Thank you, RWJ.
I have difficulty differentiating the 1810 eagle vs. the common 1818 eagle. Do you (or anyone) have a good tip or photos of a direct comparison? (I did finally buy your book, RWJ, but I havent checked there yet, since this discussion came up)

Look on p. 88 ... the three eagles are all depicted there.

thanks bobh.. ill check tonight!

I have the 1818, but im pretty sure its just the normal bird. Not the early bird.

"I have found 38 Variety of 1818 ...EXTREMELY RARE and IMPORTANT with eagle of 1810/1811 ,to buy this coin I have spent 20 years to find this coin for my collection and finally I have found just couple days back ..."
K.Kochergin.

Numismatic Gurnal "Staraya Moneta" 1910y N 8 Page 5

This year alone I saw 1826 for sale 3-4 times. The latest one sold last week in Italy for 2000 Euro plus the juice. It was about XF.
1810 I saw for sale 3 times in the last 10+ years. All of them (2 coins, one was for sale twice) surfaced in the past 2-3 years.

Anyone know of a reference that estimates the mintages of the 1826 for old and new designs? Total mintage for both 1826 rouble designs is listed at 700,000+

Marv Finnley

There is none, to my knowledge.

RWJ