Respectfully, please advise whether or not it is unusual to have a 1767 CPM 5 Kopecks overstruck over a 1762 10 Kopek piece. I've seen many other years, but do to relative scarcity/rarity of the 1767 CPM 5 Kopeks am unaware if this specific mintmark is associated with the overstriking program. Thank you for your responses on this issue.

I think that if not all then most of the CPM coins were a result of the copper reform rollback. At the present time, it appears, that each overstruck coin is evaluated on its own merits and is subject to personal aesthetic appreciation. In my opinion the more of the undercoin you get to see the more interesting that piece is. But they are not (yet) in the category of Paul's overstrikes and do not fetch as high a price.

Thank you for the response. It is my understanding that the 1767 CPM is rather rare and is by far more scarce than the 1793 EM Paul's overstrike. Perhaps as rare as the 1791.

Well, I'm not going to disagree with you as far as the 1793 EM Paul's overstrike goes. I would not consider either all that scarce. What makes Paul's overstrike special is that it is easy to distinguish these coins even when the undercoin is not visible, and there are mintage records for Paul's overstrike (as far as I recall). I may be wrong but I would say that EM 1760's overstrikes are harder to find than CPM, and CM overstrikes are rare.

Let's say it's uncommon although it's not unusual or rare. Steve should have a list up somewhere although I am not too sure if he has documented 5 kopeks yet. So far, most overstruck coins aren't of much value unless the underlying coin is a rare design, pattern or variant or it just happens to be relatively clear. Exception is if you can find an overstruck CM 5 kopek, you've hit the jackpot. It's a mystery at the moment.

That said, it's not strange to see your type of overstruck 5 kopeks going at around 40-50usd these days.

If you can find me 1767 CPM 5 Kopek coins at 50USD, I will buy all of them. 1767 CPM, and I am sure Steve would agree with me is the most difficult to find of the series. If I recall, I spent over $200USD for mine. I will post a photo shortly. I am still after the elusive 1767CM 5 Kopeks.

Should be a bit more than $50 :-) I would not be surprise if a very nice vf/xf coin (not corroded) brought over $1000 at auction nowdays. However, it may still be possible to find a corpse of a 1767 CPM for $50, although, I do not know where to look...

There you go:

http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/Fr...ossible-III.pdf

Steve

This was the draft of Part III from JRNS Winter 2005. We're already up to Part VII published recently.

1. Paul I (1797-1801) Copper Coins JRNS 79 (Winter 2004/05)
2. Catherine II (1762-1796) 2 Kopeks JRNS 80 (Summer 2005)
3. Catherine II 5 Kopeks JRNS 81 (Winter 2005/06)
4. Catherine II 1 Kopek JRNS 82 (Summer 2006)
5. Catherine II Denga JRNS 84 (Summer 2007)
6. Catherine II Polushka JRNS 84 (Summer 2007)
7. Peter III Copper Coins JRNS 85 (Winter 2007)

Here are the scans. A bit of corrosion but overall a very pleasant coin.

Most difficult to find year for this mintmark.. nice find!
Some 1762 detail to be seen on both sides. Very collectible! congrats!

Thank you! Details are well defined for the 1762 10 Kop Piece. Too bad for some of this pesky corrosion.

Nice example definitely

I think I didn't phrase my original wording right when I put in the value; it should be at least at the lower end for that series. Should have more coffee next time I reply here

Interesting article. Very surprising findings! Most surprising (imho) is that you've found so many 1787 TMs! What were your sources? (I may have missed that part at my first perusal) I am concerned that if you concentrate your attention on examining major auctions, you will not get a true sampling, as these auctions attempt to present more uncommon coins to the buyers, thus creating a bias in your statistics.

As for the coin in question, I only had Rylov and Soblin at my side yesterday, and that catalog does not heavily differentiate 1767 from previous CPM years, so I thought the discussion was more on relative value of the overstruck 1762 10 kopeeks, which I steel feel are undervalued compared to Paul's overstrikes. Here's what I saw the other day on the Gorny&Mosch results:

http://www.gmcoinart.de/shop/inhalt.php3?A...773&von=396

For some reason my browser can't load all the coins on that page, but I see 1763 and 1765 CPM (more common than 1767), and the realized prices are not spectacular. Personally, I liked that 1763 more than their 1765.

This link may be interesting:
http://tsovin.ru/coins/?nom=5+%EA%EE%EF%E5...=2008&auc=0

You bring up a good point. The bias is a known problem and is discussed in some of the earlier articles. It's also discussed explicitly in this article in the case of the 1787 and 1788 TM's (see the conclusion section).

Steve

Many rare coins are at times bought here and there. Recently i bought a 1788 TM for $125 (not too bad of a shape) and consider myself lucky, as I feel with buying my 1767 CPM. Wish I can find 1767MM and CM as reasonable as my previous finds:)

You got an 1788 TM just for $125!!!

Wow, congrats!!! I was offered one only once in like 1994 for $100, that was a lot for me at the time. I've always thought they were uber-expensive, you've got a great bargain

Sorry, I was distracted by charts and flashy graphics

So you have a huge DB with pictures?! It would also be very interesting to subcategories further - e.g. by eagle types, overdates, overstrikes. That's a big job, though. If you need volunteers, I could chip in a bit.

Can you post pictures of it, please?

You mean of 1788TM?

I purchased it from a dealer about 1.5 years ago. From his web page to be exact. Steve Moulding may remember it as I showed it to him. During one of the Brooklyn Coin Club meetings. The dealer, was sorry he sold it as soon as I bought it, but could not back out of the deal.

Many thanks

Yes the database is _huge_ and I don't think I'll ever be able to get all the images I have into it. They come in faster than I can keep up. gxseries and squirrel have both done a really great job helping with cutting and pasting catalog images for the database in general.
Eagle type and other studies...if anyone is interested in doing a particular study drop me an email and I can get the relevant part of the database to you. I've done this in the past for one of our board-mates who was doing a 5K study.

Steve

Here are the scans of the 1788TM 5 Kopeks. Too bad for mechanical damage on both sides, but for $125 I was not about to complain

Wasn't that TM 5 kopek on sale at mycoindealer.com at one stage? Doesn't matter - still a good bargain

Thank you for the pictures.

When I saw the price of $125, the first thing I thought was "Is it real?".

Well, it sure looks real to me (although I'm hardly as well versed in copper coins as others here are).

Congratulations on your good fortune!

It certainly was at mycoindealer and if you've seen it, should have snagged it, because it is sure real and with the current market trend is worth quite a bit more. I bought a few pleasant surprises from the same dealer in the past.

Yes I knew it.

I was actually under a debate on whether to get the 1731 denga overstruck on the 1724 kopek or that 5 kopek TM for about the same price. I figured that while the TM 5 kopeks are quite pricey and available assuming if I am willing to pay some 6-800 dollars in an "ok" condition but I just don't remember seeing many 1724 kopeks. That said, I don't even remember seeing ANY other than a few overstruck examples and they don't come that often either. I have two at the moment so I am considering to let one go. Got one in a lucky fluke that the seller didn't identify. Sadly we don't have all outrageous amount of money to buy what we want.

Yes I know, it is always either too late or lets just say its a fake
Not too long before that purchase, i picked-up a 1734 Denga overstruck on Peter I Kopek from Elmen I think. And before that a 173something Polushka overstruck over a super clearly struck 1729 Moskovskaya Kopeyka. That was a nice buy and cheap too (under 50US). Usually, I miss out on all the nice ones. At least one strikes my memory as truly an upsetting one, but I rather not divulge:)

If you decide to sell one, I may be interested. Please let me know.

Which one of these would you be interested in. I would trade, as you know:)

1724 "frame" kopeck

I would too want one. Can we split it frame by frame?

Guys...I think gxseries is talking about having 2 overstruck 1731 Dengas showing the 1724 as undercoin (we've discussed these several times on this board).

Steve

I know. The remark about purchase was addressed to gxseries. But, when Lenny started offering, I thought what the hell...

The 5kop1767SPM is a difficult coin. In my opinion it is the rarest of the 5kopSPM buisness strike dates. I still don't have it. Congratulations, Sigi

gxseries claimed these could be had for a mere $50US. Would be nice

Good grief lennysky, the 50USD I said is the minimum value of the overstruck 5 kopek coins from 1762-1767. I didn't account for the years, mintmark and such. That said, if you pushed hard and look, I'm sure there are some coins out there waiting to be found. A high price that you have ready to pay for doesn't necessarily mean you can always find what you want (definitely helps though) - another half of the effort is to take a large amount of effort in finding it. That said, I don't remember paying 50USD for either my 1757 kopek over Swedish ore or the other 1731 denga over 1724 kopek although if I did explicitly labeled them as such and sell them, I'm sure it's worth a bit more than what I paid for

Point taken. The overstrikes you have listed are worth quite a bit of premium. I am sure you know it. I was not trying to be abrasive.