Gorny results are out

http://www.gmcoinart.de/homepage/index.php3?sprache=en

Prices look strong.

Anyone seen a catalog for the upcoming Hoiland auction, Russia IV.?

Not yet. The date is now April 22-26 (what was it originally?)

Steve

I"ve got em..

4 part -look's alike "remains of".. only few interesting pcs and some obviouse fakes...

Thanks guys....

Not that im in a big rush to swap dollars for Euros anyway...

These two items are rarely ever seen:
#5955: 1 Rouble 1898 with counterstamp "Overthrow of the House of Romanov 1917"
#5956: 50 Kopeek 1897 with counterstamp "Overthrow of the House of Romanov 1917"

Does any reference besides Kazakov have images of what the counterstamp should look like? Kazakov states (on p. 7) that the "coins are shown with slight intentional alterations in order to prevent forgery".

Judging from these two auction coins, I must say that the counterstamp of the 50 kopek piece looks fishy to me. But I really have nothing to compare it with except Kazakov (OK ... I also have Severin and Bitkin, but I didn't look there yet; couldn't find any in Uzdenikov nor in Julian).

Who'd have thought it?

#5893: 50 kopeek 1895 - €1.000 (NOT a proof ... only AU)
#5895: 50 kopeek 1896 - €850 (nice UNC, rare mintmark)
#5907: 50 kopeek 1914 - €300 - embossed striking (2nd obverse, wide rim)

oops

Bob...can you add some commentary? I've really no idea which of these is expensive (if any) or which are cheap (if any).

Thanks

Well, I bought an 1895 poltina in AU-58 (slabbed by NGC) two years ago in the New York sale, and it went for less than $200. So there is quite a mark-up on that one, assuming that the NGC grade is accurate.

The 1896-* (Paris mint) is low mintage and somewhat scarce; very hard to find in such high grade, so I would say the price realized was adequate. Nevertheless, €850 is a lot of money for something which isn't a proof (and isn't REALLY that scarce) from this period, IMHO.

As to the 1914 poltina, I can only thank my lucky stars that I picked mine up so cheaply ... I still have it in the 2x2 holder where I put it immediately after receiving it. It was an eBay purchase, and I am out all of €30 on that one! It is the coin in my avatar, BTW. But even then, I thought I was getting a good deal on it. Even for the flat strike, narrow rim (more scarce) 1914 poltina in AU that I own, I only paid about $100 for it about a year ago. These things have gone up almost as much (or more so) than gold coins of the same era.

However, the most common of all these 50 kopek pieces -- 1912 and 1913-BC -- don't seem to attract prices anywhere near these, even in gem BU.

Nobody??

Hi Bob. Thanks for the detailed commentary on the Gorny coins. The counterstamp examples look very interesting but I really know nothing about them. Perhaps they are written up somewhere in the JRNS. Bob Julian would likely know about these and would also know a JRNS or other reference. RWJ? Anyone else?

Dr. Spasskii once mentioned to me that he considered these counterstamps as having been done
well after 1917, perhaps in the 1930s. I think that he may have published something on these pieces
but cannot find the reference for the moment.

RWJ

I saw one this morning in Spassky (Russian Monetary System) in Figure 189 "Antiquarian coin-Fakes", but haven't found anything else yet.

Steve

Ah..these counter-stamped coins are discussed on Page 229 of Spassky (English edition) or Page 231 (Russian edition)

So Spassky thought that ALL of these are fakes? I think it is worth quoting V.V. Kazakov on this (from the English translation in his book):

"The history of these coins is virtually unknown. There is only a number of theories (sources [22], [39]*). These sources show pictures of the rouble coin with a fake stamp. I.G. Spassky [30] briefly mentions this counterstamp. Yet it is undoubtedly known that a 1898 rouble with the authentic counterstamp was sold at an auction in 1931 [49] as unique (Lot 2034) for 300 Marks..."

* Sources quoted (sources given only in Russian by Kazakov):
[22] Randolph Zander: "Silver roubles and Yefimoks of the Romanovs, 1654-1955" (Russian trans. by V. Bitkin, publ. in Kiev, 1998);
[30] I. G. Spassky: "Russian Monetary System", 1970;
[39] V.D. Krivtsov: "Avers" No. 4, Moscow 1999;
[49] Hermitage duplicates sale, Frankfurt a.M., 1931.

If there was one sold at the duplicates sale in Frankfurt, then one should assume that there was at least one other example which existed prior to 1931 in the Hermitage museum, and is still there today (or not?).

The "Spassky" reference ... is this the same as the one Kazakov quoted?

Hi Bob. If you're asking me then yes...I think I said that in my post. RWJ may have a different reference in mind.

I do have the 1931 Duplicates Catalog and yes that lot is illustrated. (It's funny that something that is 'unique' was sold in a Duplicates sale )

This is the reference I had in mind. Dr. Spasskii also mentioned it in a letter during the 1960s.

RWJ

My understanding is that most, if not all, of the pieces in the Duplicates sales came
from the collection maintained at the St. Petersburg Mint. Perhaps they were duplicates
in the sense that the Hermitage had a specimen.

RWJ