Gentlemen,

With sorrow I must sell my beard token for personal reasons and I will probably sell off my silver coins too and keep the copper coins (and table medals another passion) as have to analyse all of these with steve (you are copper man indeed i hear) as I do believe copper is the most fascinating part of russian numismatics.. Just a note as to why I may be on ebay from time to time... for lack of a better alternative.

Bought this token about 5 years ago from ebay france and have to say think i got lucky as the pieces size, colour (copper is not artificially patina'd but has this copper blueish wear if you know what i mean .. on the worn surfaces) says to me that this is authentic.. I have some fakes too (bought as fakes and the difference is huge..(in fact what are this forums thoughts on http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewlot&am...15&lot=1055 as am not fully convinced) on checking it with an auction house they said that it was authentic and wanted to sell it.. but i dont like/trust them with my coins.

A) Any ideas on a reliable auction house to sell my silver.... for future?
Curiosity still niggles as to have your opinions on this item .. If I am wrong then it will promptly be removed of course.. however I must say it really does feel and look right.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=260216847879

PS my Borodino rouble fiasco story went dead so ... still waiting for my coin!!

The letters don't look exactly right to me. I won't say which ones, though.


This looks OK to me.


Since you are in Switzerland, why not Hess-Divo, Tkalic or UBS?

Enigmatic.. pls elaborate.
Also on the second coin i thought on originals the nose came straight down from the A.. hence this would make it a novodel? not an original no?
Maybe UBS indeed...tks

Correct.

Steve

Looks just fine to me. Is it gilded? Some beard tokens were.

Steve

Ahh...the ebay description says gilded.

Your token looks okay to me as well.

I don't have an original, only this novodel (one of the very few novodels I own):

Here's mine. ex Klingert Sale 1910
Click to view attachment

Very nice!

And a provenance worth noting!!

Sorry, Gentlemen! It is looks like it was g ilded yesterday! Thank you. Mummytrol.

Sorry if I sounded enigmatic here ... I wanted to take a second look at the pictures in Brekke, and I didn't consult Bitkin on this one yet. While the lettering looks mostly OK, the shape and angle of the "И" in "ДЕНГИ" looks a bit strange when compared to the pictures of Brekke 3. There might be some other minor differences, but I'm not sure yet.


Brekke publishes images of the novodel (#7) which is silver. Presumably this would be a novodel made from original dies; I believe that Brekke indicates Class 2 novodels where they appear (e.g. 5 kopeks 1765-EM, Brekke 205). Therefore, if I am correct, there must be an original in copper which corresponds to this novodel. Since Brekke provides no images for #6, I assume that this is the case.

The beard token in the NY Sale is described as Brekke 6, and the pictures match the illustration for Brekke 7 exactly.

Brekke 6 (original without counterstamp) is illustrated in "Beard Tokens" by R. Zander, JRNS 12, P14-23, available at your favorite RNS website. The nose starts in the center of the A as with all originals. The sixbid coin is a novodel.

Steve

Would this be a silver novodel, then? Or is there a copper novodel which is unlisted in Brekke? I find it hard to imagine that Dmitry Markov would have made such a mistake!

Hi Bob. There are no novodels from original dies, anywhere (Chizov/Spassky/Zander).
I'm confused as to why you think this has to be silver or unlisted in Brekke??? Finally, don't be too surprised. I have seen other errors in this and other New York Sale catalogs. It happens.

OK, this clears up my misconception here.


Looks like the sixbid coin would have to be Brekke 4, the most common one ... is that right?


If Brekke 4 is the most common of all (originals and novodels), then it still surprises me.

Correct.

Another clue...the crown is also Novodel form. Once again....JRNS 12

http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/JRNS12.html

Steve

There are still hard copies of JRNS from 1983 hanging around?

Or are these reprints?

Depends. There are still originals available from the Elmens. On the RNS website, yes I do have some originals left for some years; if not, an issue is run off from the digital archive when somebody orders.

You can read about it here
http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/Available.htm

Steve

Thank you.

You're welcome

Thanks for your info Steve. By the way I would be interested to get an archive of all journals plus be put on the list for all future articles whats should I do?

You're welcome. I'll respond to the other question in a PM.

Steve

What are the ladies who frequent this forum going to say to this??


I would say "Congratulations" for your beard token sale ... except that now it looks like you will have to send yet another coin to Russia!

Congratulations on the sale. Seems like a fair price given others I've seen sold recently.

Steve

Looks like you got "lucky" again - another buyer from Russia...

Not only is the buyer in Russia, the buyer has only been on eBay for about 2 weeks!

Thanks Guys (and ladies)!
Indeed Russia again... but hopefully not to Xavarovsk! another item going back to its rightful home I guess.. I will miss it .. but am sure once the arms race is over they will crop up all over the place.. I am still young!

I stand corrected ...
HELLO MY NAME IS **** I AM FROM RUSSIA I WON THIS AUCTION (260216847879) I WANT PAY FOR THIS TOKEN WHITH WESTERN UNION SYSTEM OK? BUT BAFORE I MAKE PAYMENT FOR YOU I NEED GOOD SCANS (PHOTOS) OF THIS TOKEN AND COPIES (SCANS) OF DOCUMENTS "....Authenticated by Internationally renowned auction house....". I WANT REAL TOKEN - NO NOVODEL!!! PLEASE WRIGHT ME PAYMENT DETALS AND SEND ME PHOTOS (SCANS) TO MY E-MAIL BOX **** Thanks.Best Regards...

Name hidden for his privacy... I will satisfy his wish .. what to do...

He should have asked you all this before he bid! I think it's too late after the auction is over. It is up to you whether you want to honor his demands.

Since you stated in the auction description that your token was authenticated by a renowned auction house -- for your future auctions, it might make sense to add more details as to the piece's pedigree (i.e. which auction house, which auction, lot number, former owners, etc.) Might even bring you a higher price!

Indeed... but have informed him (it will take me some time) and if he puts up a show .. will get the written authentication he wants (mine was verbal only) and then tell him to get lost..! If he is ok with waiting than fine by me.
Thought it was interesting to mention this request as it seems more and more people want documents.. just like slabbed... (or slapped! if you are one particular auction house).. which worries me as people will focus more on the documents than the coins themselves.. and we all know how that could end up.

At this point it's too late and you're under no obligation. He is now contractually obliged to buy it from you. That's the theory anyway. Practically, though, getting ebay to force him to pay would be likely impossible. You might want to keep him happy so that he might pay, but it's really unacceptable. Can you imagine pulling this kind of stunt at a real auction house after the hammer went down. He'd be thrown out.

It does smell like the last deal went.. as the guy after buying came back with are you sure its not a novodel etc.. but maybe this guy is reacting to the lovely feedback i had got before... so will give him the benefit of the doubt unless he starts getting aggro.

Hmm. Looking at the other stuff he's been buying (median price around $10) I'd say this is a massive step up for him and he's likely to be very nervous about this kind of money.

Sorry Ippo, but this buyer sounds like he is trying to set you up for trouble. Be careful. (it sounds like you are careful, in not saying you arent)

Did you have any similar problems with your other coins you were selling on ebay at the same time as this beard token?

Perhaps if you have more coins to sell in the future, getting them slabbed would be good insurance for you to not worry, and might be good to establish better percieved reputation.... that nasty negative from the last problem buyer will make any serious bidder nervous. You will also almost certainly get more for your coins if slabbed.

Also, as full disclosure, i did bid, but i was way down on the list. I would have gone higher toward the end time (ie snipe ) but the price was already higher than my budget would allow by that time. My bid still stands, but it is insultingly low with respect to your winner from Russia.

I don't exactly know how it works but if the runner up might be easier to deal with you could probably make him a second chance offer, you'll get 1,511.

I think he sounds like Trouble with a capital "T". If you complete the deal with him, my guess is that it will be a miserable experience for you.

I agree with alexbq2. Bypass this clown and offer to the underbidder. If he isn't any better, then just refuse to sell it to either of them & consign it to a real auction house.

You might get some flak from ebay if you do that, but I think it'll be a lot less painful than dealing with the high bidder.

I agree with opinions expressed above. Buyer should have done his homework BEFORE bidding. Your negative feedback from Borodino sale was available to the buyer before the auction began.

I considered placing a bid on your token myself because it is an interesting piece with a fascinating story. However, I am far from being an expert on this token. Although it certainly seemed like you believe that the token is authentic, it wasn't obvious to me. Thus, I had four choices:
1. Not to participate in the auction
2. Request additional information from you (after reading this thread, it seemed that there wasn't much extra aside from asking for larger scans)
3. Assume that the token is authentic and place a full-value (as perceived by me) bid.
4. Assume that the token is not authentic but still has some historical value (e.g. wasn't made in China last week) and place a substantially smaller bid reflecting that fact

Personally, I entertained #4, but by that time the price went beyond my "substantially smaller" amount. Oh well, that wasn't a big surprise - apparently a couple of less risk-averse people decided to take a leap and go with #3.

However, at no point I thought of going with #3 and then, after winning, following up with #2. Having said that, I can see a case when buyer comes across certain doubt-casting information after winning the auction and requesting qualification. However, it doesn't look like this is the case. It sounds like buyer is demanding extra documentation from you as a precondition for making a payment. I think you have every right to pull out of this deal.

In the future, you might want to qualify statements like "Authenticated by Internationally renowned auction house" (e.g. "Verbally authenticated" or "Accepted by"). Although I've never heard of an auction house providing authentication documents to the seller, some might interpret your statement as you having those documents available.

Not a bad idea. Although I am not a fan of slabs, for items like this it does take away a lot of insecurity on the part of the buyer and the seller. However, ippocampos lives in Switzerland (?? although it says item location is London in the eBay auction ??). Slabbing poses some obstacles for European collectors, although I know that UBS will handle submissions to PCGS or NGC.

Right now, I'm wondering what I should do with the 1865-EM pyatak novodel that I recently bought on eBay if I ever decide to sell it. Thanks to Steve Moulding we were able to determine that it had been sold twice at auction by Jim Elmen. I have the catalogs of both auctions and know the lot numbers. However, if I wanted to sell it on eBay, I would have to have better proof than what I've got (a few e-mails and two catalogs with images -- however, images are subject to dispute and interpretation, especially if they are sub-optimal quality or B/W as is the case here). At any rate, I would not hesitate to state the item's pedigree in my auction description as well as catalog scans to support my statements.

If I went to an auction house, OTOH, I could take the catalogs with me. Maybe the people running the auction even know Jim Elmen and/or the eBay seller I bought it from. They might not hesitate to mention the pedigree in their auction, even if I didn't go to the expense of having it slabbed (and risk losing the coin in the mail).

My advice to ippocampos, should you have more items of this rarity requiring special knowledge, etc., DON'T sell them on eBay! For genuine items, you can probably get a higher price through a reputable auction house, and it is the auction house who has to collect the money from the seller. The Russians will buy, but you won't have to deal with the shipment, customs, etc. etc.

Another thing: Seeing something like this item on eBay makes me automatically think: FAKE ... even when it isn't! The fact that it is listed on eBay makes me think that the seller wasn't able to have a reputable auction house accept it for auction, and I usually just scroll further down the list and forget about it. Obviously, a serious buyer who is out to buy a genuine beard token (or genuine novodel) isn't going to look around at eBay as their first choice of venue.

Advice taken! My sincere thanks... Will pass to 2nd chance bidder (but he looks dubious too) and then maybe after all take to auction house.. I am tempted to trade though with someone on this forum as I am also a copper overstrike man... particularly paul overstrikes on ciphers.. have loads of 1793 but no other years.. if anyone is interested am happy to send the coin to them .. they can also authenticate and upon success offer swap ? avoids both of us putting up large sums of $$$.. for what is after all our passion.

I agree.

Except when coming from an established, reputable dealer, my baseline assumption is that a rare piece offered on ebay is probably a fake. If it is not a fake, then it is probably the picked-over remains of some leftover dealer stock that knowledgeable collectors have rejected and so is being dumped on ebay.

If I want to acquire a rare and/or choice coin, then I buy from trusted, reputable dealers/auctioneers with whom I have established a personal relationship, not some stranger on the internet.

My guess that there are a lot of other collectors out there who have similar attitudes.

There are dealers who can be trusted. You have to find them, though. Usually it isn't too hard thanks to the feedback feature and general reputation of some dealers.

Unfortunately, what you say seems to be very true -- I am very wary of buying any uncirculated coins which aren't slabbed because in reality, they often have problems which are not evident from the images. If I am only looking to pay XF or AU money, though, and the pictures are good, then that is a different story.

Hi Ippocampos,

I was reading your historical note on the eBay beard token page, and while I will not disagree with the following statement:

“Calling for a pair of scissors he had acquired in Holland, Peter personally cut off the flowing beards of the stunned noblemen.”

I will add that according to the popular lore, it was a rusty axe that Peter called for, and then used it to cut of and shave the Boyars beards.

Hi Ippocampos,

I suggest do not reply to the buyer and simply open unpaid item dispute.
He will have to explain to eBay why he refuses to pay. He has no legitimate reason not to pay.

I suggest not. This very buyer can make a fuss when he paid for the token and then when he receives it, he will yell that it's not genuine and demand full money back. Might as well avoid trouble in the first place.

Agreed. It sounds like it will be a replay of Ippocampos's earlier experience. I would avoid this buyer like the plague.

Found this thread on Staraya Moneta started by your high bidder.

Very interesting! any translation available ??

You might try this: http://translate.google.com/translate_t?langpair=ru|en However, it will only give you the jist of what is being discussed.

Looks like he doesn't have any idea what this coin would be worth and is asking for advice. At first he didn't want to mention where the auction is, then someone else posted the link to eBay. He was not happy about that. One person categorically stated that the piece is fake ("Фуфло") without offering any evidence or details about why.

BTW, in the meantime I have compared your token with Steve's and have come to the conclusion that the differences in the lettering I saw are due to a combination of different lighting and the gilding which makes some parts highlight differently than others. Another reason why it is important to authenticate or refute such coins only if one can inspect them in person.

Ok many thanks. Am thinking of cancelling deal due to evidence that the guy is going to bringer of ill tidings and trouble.. I can either put it on auction (at an auction house) but am also happy to send to anyone on this panel... for inspection and happy to trade if of interest.. ? for some very nice copper overstrikes!!

Also looks like he is looking for offers to invest, before he even gets the token in hand.