Looks like it to me, but hard to tell from the pictures:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=120226453816

If it is, whoever bought it got a good bargain.

You are correct, Bob, its a Pauls Overstrike.
Even though there is no obvious hint of the Monogram 1796 10K it is struck upon, you can readily identify the Eagle, which is much different than the EM Eagle of 1788-1796. The other clue is that the style of the "3" in the date is different.

I was looking at it when it was 30 dollars, but when it went up to 50 I gave up. It's not that nice both in terms of condition and the details of the undercoin.

On the other hand a seller from BC put up a bunch of novodel wires in NGC holders for sale, I got 2 of them!

Novodel wires? Can you post the pictures of them here? Thanks

The seller posted nice pics. It is the same seller who was offering 2 of these several times for 900 US. I guess he gave up and sold for whatever. Here are the links:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025568342

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025567971

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025567127

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025566268

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025565809

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025568730

Neat Novodels, Alex.

I think you made a mistake. NGC, in this particular case, is not that you can trust.

Honestly, I had only found out that they made novodels of wire coins a few months ago, but these are consistent with the ones I've seen so far.

This one was posted by Mr. Immortal on this forum:

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=18086

I've also seen a few on one of the auctions that were discussed on this forum earlier. The seller looks trustworthy, NGC did not reject them, although I have no idea how to evaluate them. It looks like R. Kaim is the only reference on the subject.

Cheburgen, what troubles you in these?

Unfortunately in this case NGS seems to be wrong. Some of the examples are obvious fakes. Privately made. It has nothing to do with the restrikes. Cheap fakes in the boxes.

Really! That's not good news at all!

How can you tell? Where could I find a list of the original Novodels?

When you say restrikes, what do you mean? We had a discussion here in the past, a few months ago, and the learned opinion was that they would have cut new dies at the mint for the wire Novodels, so they can't be compared to the originals. So they would not really be restikes, but maybe I did not catch your meaning.

Also, you and the seller are both from BC, have you ever had a chance to deal with the "numismatic-gallery". Seems to be a very professional dealer. On eBay since 2001 6514 positive and only 7 negative feedbacks!

I do not want to badmouth anybody. As for russian coins - I've never seen anything but fakes from that dealer in the past. I'm talking about the coins I've happen to pay attention to...

There are a lot of people in BC, Canada. Probably a lot of coin collectors too. Same in your city, isn't it?

Since the russian mint NEVER produced new dies (prove me wrong!) for this things - they are simply fakes. They would not be novodels even if the new dies were produced! Novodels have to be minted with the OLD DIES. The things in the slabs are not novodels or restrikes but privately and poorely (in my opinion) made fakes.

This is incorrect.

Some novodels are made with original dies. Others are not.

Refer to Brekke pp. 16-17 regarding the 4 classes of novodels.

Correct enough for me for this case. I'm aware of the different definitions of novodels. Thank you for reminding.

As I said - prove the russian mint made the new dies and call them whatever you want. It doesn't make them relevant to numizmatics anyway. O yes... the shape is round, the clown on the horse is look alike and they are made of metal. That's about it? Official fantasy may be?

Anyway, it is not even the case here!

I'm sorry Alexbq2. I don't want to be mean to you. I was watching that crap for sale by the "professionals" for month after month... Everywere... It was rejected by some auction flat out too... They just couldn't find an .... (no offence, please!). I would try to return it. To such "professioanals" it should not be a problem...

I have only a handful of wire kopecks and none of them is a novodel. However, the
St. Petersburg Mint did produce new dies for certain 17th century gold coins and the
resulting pieces are considered novodels by all authorities. These gold novodels are
collected by some specialists because the originals are virtually unobtainable. If new
dies for gold were made, why not those for silver – or copper of the Revolt period?

RWJ

As far as Novodels being only restrikes with old dies, it is simply not true. Try finding a 200 year old coin die, and using it. That is just impossible. As we all know the collectors from mid 1800's were eager to get some rare coins into their collections and if they could not find one they just payed the mint to make one.

As far as I know there are a lot of fantasy coins among Novodels. I do collect wires, and realize perfectly well, that none of the coins listed even on major auctions as wire Novodels match anything that was produced in 15th to 17th century. Our collecting predecessors simply did not care about historical accuracy. As far as collecting Novodels it is a popular hobby, has nothing to do with actual history of coins that circulated in Russia (with the exception of coins struck with original dies of course).

I have not seen any references that listed wire novodels. And when I saw 2 of these coins on eBay a few months ago, I raised this question on this very forum. I also asked the seller. I do not recall who (but someone with a lot more knowledge than I), had confirmed that the mint would certainly cut new dies for such requests. R. Kaim is rumored to have a few of them listed. I don't read German, so I do not own any R. Kaim publications. In Russia it seems that fantasy Novodels were dismissed by researchers since their historical relevance is very low. So we still have very little info on Novodels - at least I do not know many.

Since I have nothing to compare these coins to, I will accept the NGC assessment. I do not know how they came to accept these coins in the first place but they are serious people, so I hope they've done their homework. If you know of some reference on these coins please let me know, I am very curious about them.

Great! Have fun than.

Still kind of curious, how do this items relate to the coin collecting hobby...

One more thing. I've happened to know that this things were regected by 2 auctions as fakes DESPITE the NGS slabs.

RWJ, as you said gold and silver novodels were made in 19-th century for the collectors and there are archive's records proving that. If I follow your logic correctly than any chineze fakes on the market can be justified - no record - means novodel and possibly minted?

Besides the point that the above things have the historical value of the beer bottle cups in plastic.

Not sure what you mean. Obviously, if they were made for 19th century collectors they have everything to do with the hobby - not the study of Numismatics.

BTW I recalled where I've seen more of these. It was on the WAG auction. Seems reputable! Here are some relevant pictures:

one more:

So they look just like the once sold on eBay. More than that I do not know. Since I have no other reference I'll have to trust NGC and WAG.

Once again, if anyone has any info on this kind of coins - do let me know.


PS: Bobh, I apologies for hijacking your thread

My apologies too. I would rather disscuss numizmatic items in the future.

Not a problem ... I learned a good deal from the discussion! Thanks for posting the links to the pictures, everyone.

As to WAG auctions, I remember on one occasion that there was an older rouble offered which someone on this forum identified as fake. However, it was withdrawn before the auction began, IIRC.

As to the never-ending novodel discussion, I think they do occupy their place in numismatic history -- of course, as a category separate from the regular strikes. As long as there are collectors interested in them, they will be collected. And there's really not much anyone who thinks otherwise can do about it, is there?

Sure, bobh. It's a matter of definitions. Some people collect beer bottle caps. Some coins...

This is NUMISMATIC forum, isn't it? Incapsulated crap unrelated to coins should be discussed somewere else... That's what can be done! Don't you think at least the topics on this forum should be relevant to coins?

Please get me right. I do not oppose collecting stamps or chewing gum wrappers... Certified comics or whatever.

O yes. This is NOT a novodel discussion. It was an encapsulated fakes discussion to start with.

Good example with WAG by the way... Just another example of "professionals". Speaking of garbage they put on sale in the past. E-bay are angels compare to them... And the words "trust" and WAG are used in one sentence? Pitiful...

During the Civil War in the USA, there was a shortage of copper coins. Everybody hoarded the existing regular strikes, and few were minted. So people started minting their own "coins" which we now know as "Civil War Tokens" (CWT). They were used in paying for everyday goods. Also, there are "Hard Times Tokens" from 1837 which are larger, as were the large cents back then. I never heard of any coin collectors putting down token collectors just because they aren't coins, and they are regularly slabbed by leading grading companies. They quite rightly qualify as numismatic discussion material, as do the Russian novodels (the "genuine" novodels, at least). Most collectors of U.S. copper coins will probably also have some CWT's in their collection. Some people specialize in CWT's and HTT's.

Now if we have enough people here who are only interested in collecting novodels, we could start a new sub-forum for that. Of course, they are going to scream bloody murder if anyone dares to discuss coins over there!


Well, actually I started this thread with a question about Paul's overstriking.

If we ask collectors of US coins, I think we would find that very few of them would not want to have an 1804 Dollar and many would consider such a coin the finest thing in their collection.

The 1804 dollar, of course, is an American novodel. There are no original 1804 US dollars. They were actually made, if memory is correct, from newly fabricated dies sometime during the 1830s.

http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/poplookup...+Matching+Coins

Above the link how many so-called "novodels" are graded.

IMHO again, these are not novodels. Most of novodels are coming from reputable collections and usually they are quite expensive. Like it was with collection of Gutten-Chapskiy (not sure if the name is correct in English). The dies of course could be made but I do not think that anybody could prove that these novodels are really novodels. It will be necessary at least to show the presence of such novodels in a very well known and very old collections. I can try to do a little research and ask some guys in Russia who are dealing with wires but I think they are all the time on Ebay anyway and if they were beleiving that these are novodels they could not miss such chance even for $900.

It is, of course, your right to do so, but honestly, I think, you'll have some problems in future if you'll want to sell these novodels. You can get a very good deal of money for the right coin only from the person who is a very good professional in this field. As it was mentioned before, these novodels were on Ebay for months. Don't you think that professionals in this field are not there? They are.

In Russia these "coins" called "fakes for circulation". They could be pretty expensive too, but you have to prove that they are "fakes for circulation". In this case, considering the grade and the date of issue, I do not think that they are. You have to remember the law, at that time in Russia, for counterfeiting. I think it was a death penalty or just cutting the hands. Something like this.

I once again will plead ignorance on the subject of wire Novodels. I have seen 3 sources that indicate they exist. The coins I bought came from the same dies as some of the coins on WAG. The idea that these type of Novodels existed is very consistent with the practice of Novodels. Collectors would ordered them, as well as other people who bought them as gifts. I can certainly believe that someone would go to the mint and order a full set of copper Aleksey Michailovich coins. Finding a real kopeek would not be difficult, but try finding 2 koppeks or an altyn!

I also like what The_Immortal_One said earlier on this forum about his silver Novodel of Pter's 1 kop. I think it is a perfect illustration of why they would exist. Also he is a serious collector judging by his coins, so I'll take him as a 4th reference:

"When I began collecting, I thought I would get something old. So, I bought some wire money. The "fish scales" were oddly shaped and did not contain the entire design. The "wires" were an interesting and short diversion. But years later, I looked into them again and searched for a novodel. They existed and I got one. This little "coin" came with a notation of the previous sales it was in. Two hand changes and now its mine."

Perhaps the CWT was a bad example ... Russian novodels, of course, were never intended for circulation, but for collecting. grivna1726's example of the 1804 dollar is much better!

As RWJ said earlier - only some gold and silver novodels were produced for that period. Prooven by the documents, traceble from the old collections. The things Alexbq2 have shown - are NOT coins, novodels or numizmatic items.

It is private fantasy made in somebody's garage a couple of years ago. They HAVE NOTHING TO DO with coins!
Reference to WAG - laughable...

Alexbq2 if you can hear me... Nododels DO EXIST indeed! However there is NO EVIDENCE of existing novodels for the things you have shown. If you can hear me of course.

I am having some difficulty understanding where you are coming from. I admitted several times to not knowing anything about them, since there is very little reference information on the subject. Are you saying that you have studied the subject, reviewed all existing evidence, and dismissed it? Or are you submitting your opinion?

Initially, I thought you had seen some before, and the once I got were bad.

Then, it looked as though you were comparing them to the original wires, and denying the existence of fantasy Novodels or dismissing them as something not worth collecting (not sure what you meant).

Now, you are saying that these are made in somebody's garage. Do you know this garage? All I can say is if Thee_Immortal_One got his Novodel more then a couple of years ago (please correct me if I misunderstood), and it came with some sale history, then your theory does not hold water. I can not say more since I do not know.

Please do not vent your frustration at me. In the worst case I am a victim, not a perpetrator of some scam. If you feel so strongly about your point of view, take it up with the WAG or NGC or any other auction that will sell them. As for me, I will accept them (for now) on the authority of NGC, and those who have had some for years. I will keep my eyes and ears open, and will try to learn more on the subject. If I find out that you are correct, I will certainly ask NGC for some explanations, and make my findings public.

I don't have much wire money, just some common silver pieces and a copper kopek from the time of the copper riots. I really don't know much about the wire money (and wire money novodels) and don't seriously collect it, being far more interested in the milled coins.

So, maybe you are right. Maybe these things really are the worthless fakes you say they are.

I have been told that I am a fool to buy raw coins by at least one other member of this forum, who is a slab advocate.

But, if slabs are so great, doesn't the fact that these alleged fakes have been slabbed by NGC raise any concern about the faith people place in these plastic holders? After all, aren't these TPG people supposed to have God-like abilities when it comes to such matters?

I did not say that there were archival records. I do not have it readily at hand, but Dr. Spasskii
published, some years ago, a list of novodels regularly sold by the St. Petersburg Mint in the
18th century.

Why you would draw the conclusion about the Chinese fakes being on a par with official novodels
escapes me.

Not all novodels struck at one of the Rusian mints were official in the formal sense of the word. It
was standard practice at world mints for mintmasters and engravers to also sell such pieces. The
profits so made were kept by the individuals involved rather than the State, however. Such activities
were considered a ‘perk’ in the 18th and 19th centuries although some countries, such as the U.S.,
shut off this sort of activity as early as the mid 1850s.

‘Novodels’ struck outside of an official mint (or without official sanction) are fakes, period.

RWJ

The 1804 dollars, as you note, are from new dies. However, original hubs were used to make the dies
which perhaps puts them in a special category.

In the case of official Russian novodels made long after their supposed date we are dealing with new hubs
and dies in the majority of cases.

RWJ

Thank you for this supplementary information.

I have 3 or 4 novodels that I can think of in my collection. The rest are original strikes.

I mention the 1804 dollar because I find it interesting that many collectors consider ownership of such a coin as perhaps one of the greatest achievements, if not the ultimate achievement, in US numismatics. Yet those same people might suddenly feel the urge to clap on the chastity belt when faced with a series as seductive as the Russian novodels.

I think it is worth noting that copying old dies to strike new coins might seem less outrageous when viewed from the perspective of what was done with the medals.

For example, here is a medal being offered in an upcoming European auction:


Here is the lot description, which states the medal is the work of the well-known Russian mint die engraver, Samoil Yudin.
Bronzemedaille 1672, von S. Judin (vermutlich spätere Prägung des 19. Jahrhunderts), auf die Geburt seines Sohnes Peter (später Zar Peter I., der Große) am 30. Mai. Brustbild des Zaren und seiner Gemahlin Natalia Kirillovna nebeneinander r.//Ein Engel auf Wolken übergibt dem personifizierten Russland das Neugeborene. 66,72 mm; 133,12 g. Diakov 1.2. Sehr schön-vorzüglich

While the dies used to strike this (unsigned) medal might have been made by Yudin, his medal is really a copy (or "novodel") of the original medal which was made (and signed) by the German medalist Peter Paul Werner. The blank space below the portraits (at 6 o'clock) on the obverse (depicting Alexei Mikhailovich and Natalya Naryshkina, the parents of Peter I) is where Werner's signature appears on the original medal which was later copied by Yudin.

Such copying of medals was not considered outrageous or unacceptable by collectors at this time and coins and medals were freely mixed in collectors' cabinets. I think this helps place into context the practice and attitudes with respect to the novodels of coins at the mint and among the old collectors.

Ok... One more time. I do like and collect novodels myself. I have a novodel coronation rouble, copper 19-th century kopeks for example. Documented novodels! Other people have novodels undocumented but with the history were you can trace it back thru the owners and sales.

How would I say that clear? Chinese fake that was made a year ago can not be traced to 19-th century?

Regardless of the definition of novodels the shown things are not ones. The things made OUTSIDE the mint are fakes. They are NOT novodels! This is Alexbq2 case. Fakes. No records, no catalogs, no history, questionable seller - fakes. Hope my point is clear.

NGS made a mistake. So they did mistakes before many times! Platinum coins Gangut roubles, Horse roubles, etc. Personally I still like slabs and would prefer to deal only with slabs. Arybody can make a mistake!

It really seemed that you were dismissing Novodels as something worth collecting in the earlier posts.

But you are saying that there is no catalogs documenting wire Novodels at all? Or just the once that I got?

If you look at the NGC slabs they refer to Kaim or Diakov. I do not own either reference, but it seems that whoever graded them did have some catalog to refer to. I will try to get one of those.

If we pose questions differently - "Is there any reason for wire Novodels not to exist?" I would say there isn't one. "Are these particular coins actual Novodels?" is a different question, at the present time I can not answer it.

Getting back to Bobh's original subject.

I was going through the WAG auction list saving images of those novodels that are under some suspicion. And they actually had this 1793 Paul's overstrike sell for 250 Euros!

I had no idea that the prices went up that much! So I take back my original statement, about the one sold on eBay. My method of price estimation is obviously outdated. I usually take the price I paid back in the day, and multiply by 4, so I estimated mine to be about 100, and the one on eBay about 75. I guess I should be multiplying by 8!

Of course the WAG one shows the undercoin quite nicely, maybe that's why it was pricey.

Here we go again. One more time. I did not dismiss anything without proper research. Nothing personal alexbq2, but why do you think you are smarter then hundreds if not more people who are interested in novodels? EVERYBODY've seen that junk hanging on eBay for many months!

As far as I know there is no catalogs documenting wire or other Novodels explicitly. Some novodels mentioned in some literature. The thing you got - IS NOT MENTIONED ANYWERE! I can put it softly. I couldn't find. And I had plenty of time and interest. That is why I say PROVE ME WRONG!

"Are these particular coins actual Novodels?" - clearly NOT!

I would personally pay ten times more for the AUTHENTIC novodel of the SAME coin you got! And not only me, there are a lot of people who collect novodels. NOVODELS! Not junk misteakenly boxed! Novodels with the history of sales (that is what I'm looking for).

I do have Kaim and Diakov catalogs. References are to the REAL coins, which is funny enough. Somebody at NGS had a bad day perhaps...

As I said before it was rejected by some auctions in US despite NGS box and I know that for a fact. That is beside the point.

And again, please do not be offended. I'm just bothered by the fact that somebody got cought by those c---ks...

Thanks for the picture, Alex.

Of course, the eBay coin was corroded, and this one not. I think almost all of the overstruck coins look like this ... it was probably impossible to strike cleanly because of the irregular surfaces, although I believe they tried to smash the undercoin with a hammer or something to flatten it out before striking it with the overcoin dies.

If it weren't for the green stuff, I think the eBay coin would probably have gone for well over $100.

Gelos is selling another one of these maybe Novodels here:

http://www.gelos.ru/month/mart2004/petr.html

Pretty good example. Now compare with the ones you got. The details from the Gelos coin DO CORRESPOND with the known novodels.

It looks like I persistently misunderstand your posts. I apologize. I thought that you were advocating that such (not specifically mine) Novodels do not exists - period. That is why I was disagreeing.

Could you please point out where I can find a reference on the known Novodels. I think I should educate myself on this topic.

Also, please compare the Gelos coin rider to the one from eBay (not mine):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=310025567127

I think they are very close, I will examine both pictures more closely once I got time.

This is the coin from the WAG auction. It is imho from the identical dies as the Gelos coin. Ebay coin is close, but again imho, some small differences.

Additionally, I found these coins, the first one matches the one I got:

http://rucollect.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...0812eb3afa1bc6d

I know nothing of this site though.

I think the same seller sold these coins, listed as Novodels:

http://rucollect.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...0812eb3afa1bc6d

http://rucollect.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...0812eb3afa1bc6d

http://rucollect.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...0812eb3afa1bc6d

and these Peter coins:

http://rucollect.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...0812eb3afa1bc6d
http://rucollect.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...0812eb3afa1bc6d

Any opinions?

Couple more novodels:
http://www.coinsyard.ru/?id=36701
http://www.coinsyard.ru/?id=36711

Also from WAG (I didn't organize the pictures yet):

I do not think I can help you with the references. The Gelos example is exact copy of the novodel from the famous collection and the picture is exactly the same. I can not provide a picture i have without a permission. If you are really insist I can ask. Those particular dies do have a history. That's why I think it IS a novodel.

The other links are obvious modern fakes. All of the copper is junk!

Regarding eBay thing. Same seller. Needless to say more.

Official soviet novodels have a copy mark on them for example. 5, 10 kopecks, Siberian copper and many others were made for educational purposes and museum exibits.

Silver roubles I wouldn't judge from the pictures. It is very hard to tell even if you have them in your hands. But again, it's just my opinion.

Politely saying WAG doesn't have any authority for me. For the reason. For too many reasons. And not only for me. If the coin there from the unknown source - I wouldn't buy it.

Don't you find it funny - ALL of them are different?

It's not that easy to condemn what is a fake immediately without proper research. You got to admit that references do make mistakes at times although it's quite uncommon. One such example is the Soviet pattern that was discussed some time ago http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showto...=soviet+pattern

Sometimes it is easy. Just like the copper peaces links shown. Sometimes it is not. Just like the silver links shown. Or your example with the NGS mistake...

I don't understand what are you trying to say. If you visit a flea market and see a pile of chinese copies I assume the research is kind of pointless?

Point is, you can't just immediately discard whatever that is not in catalog book as fakes as well as whatever that is in catalog book as 100% genuine. Chances are you are 99% right but you can't just disregard that 1% uncertainty.

Hmm, I was busy looking for additional examples of these wires, so I did not spend that much time comparing pictures, I will try tonight. But I thought that the WAG coins that I posted as attachments could have come from the same dies as the Gelos example.

I would very much appreciated some input on those coins from forum members. You guys have a good eye for detail

gxseries, it is quite a general statement isn't it? And I 've said already in my previous posts - anybody can make a mistake. Some things can be discarded immediately - examples are given.

Speaking of russian coins. If it is not in the major catalog (Uzdenikov, Bitkin, Usupov, Duke etc) chances are the thing is a coin - waaaay less then 1%. Major discovery in the archives have to be made or some big collection with the prooven history appiers on the auction or in the museum. Otherwise it is just a modern junk.

Hundreds of them are hanging around undocumented. Alexbq2 examples, eBay crap, WAG, etc. My point is simple. Not in the catalog or not from the recognized collection - it is a fake.