Good evening Gentlemen!

We have often criticised forgers, fake - sellers and the like but I find myself being accused of one and want some opinions on my coin as I am no intentional fake seller.

I bought this coin about 7 years ago from a reputable dealer in London (belonging to a reeputable auciton house) and have had to for the usual reasons ($$$) sell it which I did at the end of last month on ebay (stupid of course but makes a quicker revenue generation than auction houses). I guaranteed authenticity as this was my belief and it looked fine to me apart from 2 teeth marks on the rim (something I have seen on a similar coin from another auction but open to anyones thoughts on that).. however this to me hurt quality but not authenticity.

Ebay link : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=260186670745

Item no: 260186670745 - on ended items.

The buyer after 1 month tells me its a fake

quote"
In comparison with the certificated coin =ANACS =
1. Difference in the text of an inscription from edge.
2. Difference in an ornament on edge of a coin.
3. Difference in hairdresses, curls of hair.
4. Difference in a laurel branch around of a sword.
5. Other fine differences look and you will see them.
"unquote

Although I am threatened with negative feedback and certain death unless I do not restitute the money (something I have happily accepted as being a collector I abhor swindlers and above all want someone to be happy with the coin that made me happy) I have asked to have my coin back first and same day received I will restitute.

1) Is this fair?
2) Most importantly what is the panels verdict of the coin? As soon as I get it back I will post pictures as I would like a more objective opinion if it is indeed suspect as I can further this with this reputable auction house with no name...

Very grateful for your thoughts.

The problem with the 1839 Borodino rouble is that there are quite a few different obverse and reverse
dies, each differing slightly. I have compared the photos to pieces in my data bank and I cannot see
any difference in the style of lettering. The eBay photos, however, are a trifle soft and exact comparison
is difficult. On the whole it looks genuine but this is just an opinion.

RWJ

RWJ Thanks (of course its an opinion).
Grivna you are a wise man.

I don't know if it is a fake or not and would like to see higher resolution photos of the edge (if that is possible).

I suggest that if the buyer thinks it is a fake, then the best thing to do is accept the return and refund the buyer's money (even if the coin is proven genuine).

If you don't, the buyer will decide you are a crook and will likely say that to everyone he knows.

If the coin is bad, you will have done the right thing and will need to go back to the dealer from whom you purchased the coin.

If it is genuine, you probably won't have any trouble finding another buyer in today's market.

It is a nuisance and means you will not see the money as quickly, but you might end up getting more for the coin in the end.

Picture is bad but coins looks ok to me.

Once I had the same case - a buyer purchased 1839 conmem.rouble but "found out" something "wrong with letters". I was on a business trip and I offered the customer to address to GIM museum for the certification at my cost (in case of a fake) while I was away from Moscow. I was 100% certain about the coin and it turned out that it was 100% original. When I returned and met the buyer he apologized for this doubts and asked me to resell the coin for him somewhere else because he neede the money urgently. A nice coin took 5 days to be sold to another collector. I understood it was the main reason for the buyer to return the coin. The main idea is to be cooperative

Sorry to see he hit you with a negative feedback today

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...erid=ippocampos

Indeed I am sorry but the guy is crazy... I said to him, as was advised on this thread and as my conscience dictated, that if he is not happy I will refund regardless (even after 1 month) but that I must have the coin returned first (how do I know what might have been done to it or not and who this guy is ??) as the guy was aggressive from the start.. he said refund me right now or else i will post negative feedback etc.. so again I said refund fine with me just return my coin... then i get all these messages if you want war you will get war! and let me keep the coin its only worth 100 $ etc... i would beware of this guy, as I never disagreed to his requests as I can claim myself from the auction house if it is fake or else sell on.. (although i get my bonus in 3 weeks ::))) so perhaps no need!

Thanks for your advice, if I do get the coin back then I will post better scans...

You can forward this link to the buyer. I'm just seeing this as he wanted a free steal from the buyer's side. Since he is in Russia, he can send the coin to GIM and ask for their opinions. He didn't.

Next time when I am selling some of my rarer Russian coins, I think I should just avoid selling to Russia - once they get shipped in, how on earth does the buyer sends it out of the country supposely if he dares to claim counterfeit as an excuse.

That's how I won my 1802 10 kop last summer!

The seller did not want to deal with a Russian buyer who outbid me.

gx, the same thought occurred to me.

Ippocampos, if you respond to the negative feedback, I recommend that you include a link to this thread in your response.

This seems the main reason for the whole fight. He wants a free coin.

Thanks for your advice. Thread posted and have also alerted buyer to this thread here. He is more than welcome to return the coin (my father lives in russia he can give it there too...unless he really deems it a fake and can send it out as a counterfeit, I spent over 100 usd to send it to him by courrier) and then he will promptly be refunded.

Have directed buyer to this thread and received a softer approach not threatening to tear my head off anymore... However still insists to give his money back first. I have explained that I will not do this particularly after his aggressive stance has not filled me with much trust. Is this unreasonable? I have also told him if he does not send it he can drop it off in either Moscow or St. Petersburg. What should I do? Anyone know this buyer okcoin27?

I don't know him & I don't want to know him.

There is absolutely no way that I would refund his money without getting the coin back first.

Do you know of any stores that will refund your money BEFORE you return allegedly defective goods? I don't.

Thanks Grivna, its good to share my concerns online in this forum to avoid more costly mistakes...

Hi Konstantinos,

I think that you have done everything you reasonably could in regards to this unfortunate buyer. Under no circumstances would I refund his money without receiving my coin back and making sure it's the same coin I sold him in the first place.

If he truly believes that the coin is a fake, he should have no problem returning it. Why keep a piece of junk? You certainly made it as easy for him as possible by allowing him to return it in Russia and not having to worry about customs and legalities.

Good luck. I sicerely hope that everything works out well.

I am not completely sure that this story is as explained by one side (ippocampus). I'd rather hear the opponent too. It is not possible for him to bring coin to Russian State Historical Museum (GIM) in Moscow for authentication as someone suggested. It is not possible to send it to GIM by mail, this is the best way to lose something valuable in Russia, just send it to a big organization by mail and it will never be found. It is not also possible to the buyer to "...drop it off in either Moscow or St. Petersburg" as suggested by ippocampus. Ippocampus, do you have his address where you sent the coin? Am I right that he is in Komsomolsk-on-Amur? Do you know how far this city is from Moscow or St-Petersburg? ... And I do believe there is a chance that the coin may be a fake. So not all that easy. I am also wondering, what amount was offered as refund? Was it fair? I do not think buyer wants to get a free coin, it is not like that. May be he is afraid to send the coin and get nothing at all in return?

------------

This thread also raises some questions. Let's say you on e-bay purchased $500 coin which looked completely genuine on the pictures. Paid $500 +$15 for shipping. After receiving a coin sent it to a grading service and it turned out to be a fake. The cost of sending back and forth and authenticating was $70. Then return postage to the seller another $15. Seller was OK to refund hammer price of $500. You lose time and $100. Question. Is it fair that seller offered you refund of the purchase price and did not offer to pay back $100 in related expenses? Is it fair when seller saying "I did not ask you to pay to any grading service for authentication of this coin, you did it at your own free will so I do not refund this amount but only hummer price of the coin"? Any thoughts? Should the buyer after receiving refund post a negative feedback to such a seller? Deserve such a seller negative feedback just because he did not do his own home work, he supposed to make sure the coin is authentic and he did not care?

WCO

Here is I think a good advice. Always promptly authenticate your coins before selling. Then you will avoid "... more costly mistakes".

WCO

Maya makes a good point.

In this particular case, a switched coin would probably be very easy to spot due to the distinctive characteristics of this particular example.

As a collector, I have always understood (even if it is not explicitly stated) that I should never remove a coin from a dealer's holder unless I am certain that I am going to keep it. Some dealers might be willing to allow that for established clients, but even in that case, it would be best to obtain the dealer's permission first.

I see here a point.
Again and again Better to buy this kind of coins slabed. That way you can skip all this trouble. And even if its cleaned and slabbed by NGS its still genuine. Its ridiculously to buy such expensive coin with closed eyes.
Seller must insure his own opinion by one of the third party graded company, to avoid this situation.

This coin is a fake. It is relatively easy to compare this picture with the well known line of minted fakes. It is identical. The fake of this quality worth about $100 in my opinion.

Person is Russia is obviously very limited in his/her actions. It can't be send back. If he/her sends it from Siberia to your parents and it's disappears, you will not refund? Put yourself in his shoes...

Personally, I DO NOT sell to Russia anymore exactly for that reason. In this case i would return the money minus $100 and let him/her to keep it.

What do you need this souvenir for, Ippocampos, anyway? You made a mistake twice selling a fake and selling it to Russia. It can not be returned reasonably safely.

If you are so concerned about honesty - return the money and ask him/her to withdraw the negative feedback.

I dealt with this Buyer before and had no problem. The guy is very straight forward and honest.

I looked at the photos and did not see any obvious signs of being counterfeit. Please
explain why it is a fake.

RWJ

First of all - I bought exactly the same one a few years ago myself. It is in my aquarium now with the fishes. Pure silver. Here the link how it looked like: http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/analisis.cgi?view=coins

If you visit some russian forums and search for it - there is plenty of examples. Just compare the detailes.

And the buyer is right, if you look at the certified coin - no further questions needed. I have one.

Still did not get it why people so risky and pays HIGH amounts for coins that very hard to authenticated even if in the hands... Not smart moves...
Want make sure (at least 95% if no more) that coins is genuine BUY IT SLABBED or with Suuuuuuper garantees that its genuine and not just buyers opinions...

Same here. Can say only good things about the buyer. I think he is just extremely upset to lose significant amount of money, and who would not be?

WCO

I checked the coin on this site. NOT the same pair of dies as the ippocampus piece.

In an earlier post I noted that the ippocampus coin may be genuine but that I could
not be certain. I see nothing so far that changes this view.

One problem is that the ippocampus photos are somewhat 'soft' and therefore an exact
determination is difficult. Moreover, the 1839 Borodino coins were struck from a considerable
number of die pairs, all of which are slightly different. There was no master hub for dies at
St. Petersburg prior to 1844.

RWJ

Seems as "I have no opinion" verdict to me.

WCO

I would agree 100% about selling to Russia. Lots of dealers refuse to ship to buyers from not just Russia but most of Eastern Europe these days.

As far as letting the buyer keep the coin - why? Just because it is difficult to ship it from Komsomolsk to Moscow? The coin made it from outside of Russia to Komsomolsk, and what? there's no way it can make it to Moscow? I find this argument unconvincing.

If I was in the buyer's situation - i.e. thinking that I've been had for $2500, I'd be very happy to spend $50 on shipping if that would get me my $2500 back!

On top of that the coin has not gone through any legitimate certification, its authenticity or fakeness are not confirmed. Since the seller is willing to refund the money based on the buyer's unconfirmed opinion, the buyer has to return the coin.

And he is not refusing to return it, just since he thinks he deals with dishonest seller he wants his money back first and does not want to risk losing all the money if coin gets lost in Russian mail system. Just Russian mentality. Could it be?

WCO

it really funny to get money first... he must be SO SMART GUY...He better should think before to make such expensive purchase with no garantees. So he's the bad Player of the poker.
He has to mail it that`s it.
"Бояться Волка да в лес не ходить"

Maybe, but I'm not convinced. He thinks the coin is only worth $100. What is he risking if it gets lost in the mail? Just $100.

IPPOCAMPOS is risking to lose the coin that he thinks is worth $2500, if he returns the money first.

I do not think this is a reasonable demand. And I hope a cooler judgment will prevail.

I'm not sure how the Post works in Russia, but I would imagine there is something like insured mail?

I guess even probably he know that coin genuine and just feels sorry for $2500 he spent on purchase, he wanted to get it for $500, or $250 :-)
But that is point also, want your money back just send a coin and not post negative feed back to the person who accepts returnes...
But to tell you true russian buyers in the past pain in the....

Even if he thinks the coin worth $100 or even completely worthless, he will lose $2500+ if coin gets lost in the mail. Since "no coin" means "no refund". I myself agree, he should send it back (in this particular case) before refund will be issued. Just imagine the coin will be lost in the mail system. Then buyer will be punished twice! And all this will be fault of seller who must authenticate any questionable coin before selling and he did not.

2 Marina: More suitable: С паршивой овцы, - хоть шерсти клок!

WCO

there is one more chance to get part of money back, buy a ticket to suisse and give it to buyer's hand, in this case you will get at least something... minus ticket+visa expences :-) better than nothing. + you can give personal "hugs" to the seller

RWJ, you are right. In that link they are slightly different. However there are many other examples.

After all you are the one who wants to be sure. I'm already sure. So please do your search yourself. I'm not going to convince you.

As I said before I do not find it appropriate to discuss fake's manufacturing improvements.

There is even better one. Ippocampus's father visiting Siberia. Cheap train tickets and 5-6 days from Leningrad (or Moscow) on train to Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

WCO

wow! it possible will be super fight (heavyweight?)
or with machine guns

but if we could be serious, its both mistakes:

Mistake of the seller that selling cheese without knowing its made from Cow or from Goat's milk.
And mistake of the buyer spending money without knowing buyw cheese or S***

After this accident I believe russian buyers will love the Slabbed coins

No that is not what I saId. Please read more carefully.

RWJ

RWJ,

Do you believe the coin is authentic, not authentic or have no opinion?

WCO

WCO, excuse me for correcting you but the question should be this way:

Do you believe the coin is NOT authentic or have no opinion?

Since nobody can declare authenticity from the picture of uncertified coin by a definition...

As for me if I don't have an opinion I simply do not say anything. In this case I do. Whatever it worth...

Will you post a picture of any other similar fake coin?
You sound pretty sure I guess you are able to provide us with different examples of one and the same fake. Untill then you did not convince me.

If the buyer in Komsomolsk-Na-Amure wants to try to find the truth about the coin - he could post in this topic a hi-res picture of the coin including its edge.

BTW, I think I may know the buyer - if my suspicion is correct - he is a dealer from far east Russia who sells in Molotok.ru, he sells fakes as well (!). I am not a frequent visitor on eBay but if anybody recognizes the coins under this link from eBay - he could trace it to the name of the buyer. http://molotok.ru/show_user_auctions.php?u...amp;gr_id=48405

A link to this topic was posted in Ippocampos's reply to the buyer's negative feedback:

So, the buyer is presumably aware of this discussion (even if one chooses to disbelieve Ippocampos's statement that he directed the buyer to this discussion).

I therefore wonder why the buyer has apparently chosen not to do as you suggest.

After all, if he can buy on ebay, then he must have internet access. If he has internet access, then he should be able to post to this website if he wishes to do that.

The fact that he has apparently chosen not to do so or to contradict Ippocampos's account of what has occurred leads me to think that Ippocampos has been reliably reporting what has been happening.

Timofei, as I said I'm not going to convince anybody over anything. It's my private opinion.

May be you show me a catalog or auction or other reputable source picture that matches this thing... My certified coins are different, sales history pictures are different.

Please show me reason of your doubts! Any picture matching this fake in the catalog I don't have may be?

Why do I have to do all the work? The bottom line is - this fake's dies do not match anything described in the available literature. And some details DO match the described minted fakes varieties. I don't have time looking for source right now.

Let it be just my words. I don't care.

Thanks for your thoughts but..

maybe I am not clear this is not a 'souvenir' but right now a big headache! I want it back as i need to:

1) Go to the dealer / auction house who must explain why this is the case and if so they must not allow it in future, this is not acceptable.
2) To make better scans (I have a new scanner now) and find out as we are all interested to know what it really is.

Had the buyer said its fake, refund me I will send it to you here is AWB number fine... no questions asked .. but how do you react if someone says
you are a swindler, a crook, I will rip your head off.. and now after being directed to the thread says.. Give me 500$ its your lucky day I am coming to St petersburg for holiday...(no budget airlines?) ? Nevertheless I repeat I will work through this with him but have learned yet another lesson in life... Honesty has to work both ways otherwise its called stupidity. Now he is becoming more reasonable and we can talk sense. Maybe I go to Siberia?