I just got this 1787 20 kop coin, and it looks awfully nice. I would like to hear opinions from people who are more use to assessing a grade. I realize that I'd probably have to send it to NGC if I want to have a grade assigned, but I guess I'd like to know if it's even worth sending it. Thanks.





Hope these images show:)

http://71.196.128.196/shares/20kop1787sml.jpg

http://71.196.128.196/shares/20kop1787rSml.jpg

I like the uncleaned surfaces on that one. Without seeing it in hand, I would guess EF-45 or AU-50 from NGC assuming everything passes the test on authenticity.

Unless you are planning to sell it in the near future, why bother spending the money to send it to a slabber?

It's a nice coin - well above average for its type and as such, attractive to knowledgeable collectors - whether in or out of a slab.

If you plan to keep the coin but get it slabbed anyway, don't be surprised (if you do decide to sell some years in the future) to hear that it's in the "wrong slab" or that "grading standards have changed" and you will have to pay again to have it re-slabbed.

(No doubt slab junkies will tell you that you are a fool for having purchased a good coin raw.)

Thank you both. And grivna1726 you do have a point. But slabbing is the "in" thing these days. I would be content to get a "slab it yourself" kit. But forgive my ignorance, how does an NGC slab go bad? Wouldn't an older slab demonstrate that the coin's been well taken care of? Also the nostalgic look of the "old school" slab should be attractive?

It is your coin. If you want to get it slabbed, then my recommendation is to do so when you decide to sell, but in the end you should do whatever you think is best.

I have only one slabbed coin - an 1841 5 Roubles in an NGC holder, purportedly "MS-66". It came already slabbed when I bought it and I have never bothered to crack it out. Everything else I own is raw.

I don not get it, why people thinking that slabbed coins "sucks" I can bet that everybody will pay MUCH MUCH more for ever "point higher" that says on slab-label.

So no debt about slabbed coin, it was the Best choise for anytime!
No matter you sell it or keep it. There is no way to keep coin better but in the slab, plus you know much close exectly what do you have, real nice graded coin or junk.

Likewise. I find slabs too impersonal and bulky. All but one of the coins in my collection is raw....a Finland Gold 20M came slabbed from one of Mr. Markovs auctions a few years back. Seems like there are slabophiles and slabophobes

Steve

At least the european members are 100% slabophobes.

I'm sure any person who has opportunity to buy high quality coin (for example slabbed ms65) will pays fair amount if its slabbed and will NOT pays if it NON slabbed and described as FANTASTIC quality even if picture show all "amaizing" details.

If you refer to US market you're right. But in Europe we don't use the ms65 grade, so we don't care about slabs. Matter of taste. BTW, many of aUNC graded and slabbed coins are XF for an european eye, so few chances for an advised collector here to pay a premium for a nice pack with barcode and hologram.

I'm not a slabophobe. I just think it's a waste of money.

For items which are widely counterfeited and rarely seen as genuine items, I think it makes good sense to seek expert advice regarding authenticity (as opposed to grading) when considering a purchase from an inexpert or unknown source.

Most Russian copper plate money offered for sale is counterfeit. That is why I paid to have my grivna plate authenticated (not graded) when I bought it privately 24 years ago.

After all I`m sorry but I can not agree that slab doesn`t make a sence.

If I offer you 2 coins which is both looks UNC on the picture but one is slabbed ms64 and another not. I'm sure anybody from US, from Europe or from Indonesia will prefer Slabbed coin.

BTW we are live in USA and there is no sence to talk about NON slabbed coins since each point can make different with three zeros on final price.

I think slab has only one minus that you can not feel the coin, to hold it. After all that anyway better to sleep well with graded/authenticated coin.

As I said, slabbing a coin have sense in USA. But in Europe the challenge is to complete a set of hundreds of different coins, many of them extremely rare, not to acquire the best coin from one of millions minted, like the most US coins. An european collector is happy to find one really rare F coin from his country after years of hunting, and he will pay for it more money that is listed in Krause. You will be amazed how many rarities we bought from USA at ridiculous low prices (comparing to local prices). Or, you will be amazed too, to find how "cheap" comparing to US rare coins are the rarities from Hungary, Austria, or even Germany. Open a catalogue and at different chapters than US coins and you will understand how hard is to complete a set of Montenegro, for example. And, I will assure you, you must pay here much more than the price listed in Krause... We talk about different things.

Well, this is a very interesting discussion!

I'm not sure I understood what the disadvantages of slabbing are. I am not a frequent practitioner. But I think it is a nice way to distinguish a particularly nice coin in your collection. And it also keeps my grubby little fingers away from it. And as far as resale value, from what I've seen so far, lots of people do buy the slab and not the coin.

I had no idea though that NGC or others can declare all previous slabs to be obsolete, and force you to redo it. How does that work? If that's the case one should only slab before selling.

BTW, that eBay dealer who just slabbed his coins himself did pretty good in terms of sales!

in XXI Century to buy coin slabbed by professional third party graders more secure and i would say 95% of slabbed coins always pretty close to the grade indicates. Of course nobody perfect, but I will trust NGC slab than describtion even most popular dealer that coin in BU!! condition

About old and new holders, just people talking that coins in Older holders has been graded more conservatively.
But it can be (I think) for coins that did not get PL designation or CAMEO/ULTRA CAMEO designation... and rest I would say pretty same grades.

I can be wrong

It is not so much a disadvantage as a matter of personal preference.

When I drive my car, I know a "STOP" sign when I see one. I don't need to have someone tell me what the sign is, what it says, or what I should do as I approach it. Paying someone to do that for me is, in my opinion, a waste of money.

If I want to know if a coin is a nice coin, I can open my eyes, look at it and make that evaluation for myself. I don't feel I need to pay to have someone else do that for me.

I agree that there are many people who buy the slab and not the coin. That is why there are other people who crack out coins and repeatedly resubmit them for grading, hoping to one day get lucky and have the coin come back a grade or more higher. Then they can sell the coin for much more money because there are buyers out there who are only interested in what is written on the slab and not what is inside it.

If I ever send my coins for slabbing, it will be because I am planning to sell them at auction and because I have been convinced that there are enough slab buyers who will be bidding to make it worth my while. Until then, in my opinion, it is just a waste of money.

I understand that there are many people who disagree with me. That is fine and what they choose to do with their money is entirely up to them.

I take it you have not encountered the "grading standards have changed" phenomenon. Let's put it this way: what is "ms65" today might not be considered as such by buyers tomorrow, no matter what the slab says.

I complectly understand you.

Yes, we are all can open out eyes and see if coin good one or not. But for example if its just let's say silver ruble and looks like ms63-65 and you really guessing about it. For example if you want to sale it you will choose send to grade since price can be for ms63 $1500 and for ms65 - $5000+

Don't you want to make sure what coin you hold?

Every coins that we have in future will be sold by us or our childrens. And if you want to get better price it MUST be slabbed.
And I don't really like sentence "people buys slabs and not coins". I think if person prefers slabs he also prefers COIN in the Slab. and after if he bought it and it doesn`t looks such nice as grade indicates he can return it.

About RE-submiting I think its funny thing... Never even was thinking about it. But some people does it which is really loosing of time.

And again if I hold coin that cost $5000 I really do not care that $20-30 grading fees really matters. I will give you $100 to make sure that I have something special in the slab.

About changind grading style or numbers its all not real conversations...
Its same thing like goverment will changes Dollars design and old banknotes will be destroed...

I dont think there is a right answer or wrong answer in this debate. Personally, I fall closer to the slabophile in the spectrum. On more expensive 'big ticket' items I just like to have the piece of mind that I am buying an authentic coin. There are too many fakes out there and I do not yet have the practiced eye to pick out the good ones. I also like the added 'liquidity' that a slabbed coin gives the collector in the US, so I am not stuck arguing with a thick headed dealer or collector about condition or authenticity when it is time to sell.

So what were the other grade opinions on the original coin posted?

Oh yeah! I think we got sidetracked. I am very curious about that.

I say: "choice XF". Although the detail is closer to AU grade, there is a noticeable planchet flaw (lamination?) on the obverse which might even keep it out of an NGC or PCGS slab. However, I don't know if these standards apply to coins this old or not. There is definitely enough rub on the crown to keep it out of the MS range, though.

How about "aEF"? Coin is relatively well struck for its type with light wear. It would be better without the flan flaw on the portrait, but one has to be a bit forgiving with 18th century coins because few were perfectly made.

Overall, it is a superior example, certainly well above average for its type.

I agree looks VF35 to me

I would say at least an XF. Most of them were weekly struck. This one is well above average. This coin has almost no wear. Does not have any serious mechanical damage that I can see. 99% of detail is intact and clearly visible. The only question I would have if it is corroded. I see some spotting, but it may well be harmless. The fact that there is no mint luster is not fatal -- we are not shooting for a high MS anyway. :-) As to a numerical grading by NGC, etc. -- there is a possibility that NGC morons would grade it vf35. I have seen worse screwups on their part.

My opinion in slightly different.

If a coin has a metal inperfection of this size practically ruining the portrait, the coin cannot serve as a single example of its type in a collection. This coin will only fill up its place in a date run. When only the reverse is visible maybe in an exhibition of a nearly complete collection this coin will serve fine.

The grading varies from country to country, seller to seller, time to time. Only dealers focus all their interest in matters like these.

While I would agree with most of this statement, please take in consideration that the "imperfection" also tells a story about minting technology of the period. Laminations of this sort are common mostly on russian crowns and minors of Peter through Anna. It is interesting to see that smelting technology did not improve through almost all of the 18th century, as shown by this particular lamination. While eye appeal is important, in my mind it may not be the single most important factor in determination of whether to buy a coin (unless you buy it not for a collection, but for an inventory) (IMHO)

Additionally, the lamination indicates that the coin is not a fake, which easy-to-spot and remember sign is very important for many beginning collectors of russian material judging from the vast majority of topics on this forum.

Thanks everyone for your comments. Your opinions are much appreciated!

I think the coin is in EF, but the defect on the portrait side worries me. I think it is very likely that if I send it off to be graded, it'll come back as VF. So I'll probably refrain from showing it to NGC and keep my 30 bucks.

I thank you for the remainder, you certainly have a point there though I would prefer to see the metal flaws due to minting technology of the day someplace else than the portrait.

This brings to my mind another feature from the minting technology point of view. In my experience, it seems to be almost impossible to find a detailed, sharp portrait from the last portrait type of the Empress. In all the nominals in this period 1784-96 the portrait has a low relief and together with a commonly seen weak strike the bulk of these coins even after moderate circulation show very little detail. After having been a longer time in circulation practically only the outer lines of the bust remain (this will of course happen to any coin, but it is the condition typical for the roubles offered from this period). In addition, the smaller nominals often appear to have been struck with well worn out dies resulting in a hopelessly porous surface.

So, this series certainly forms a great challenge for the demanding collector.

I don't wish to sound flippant, but what difference does it make if NGC calls it "Poor", "Gem Unc" or something in between? The coin is what it is.

Unless you are planning to sell the coin ASAP to someone who will pay according to what is marked on the holder, then what NGC chooses to call it is, in my opinion, of no importance.

It is a nice coin and while you can probably find a better one if you keep your eyes open, it will not be a matter of making a single phone call and paying the asking price. You will need to be patient, watch and wait until such a coin becomes available. There are no bags (or even rolls) of these out there overhanging the market and begging for a buyer.

Very well pointed grivna!

Well, I agree in general that slabbing is mostly useful when trying to sell. But in some circumstances I want an official "seal of approval". As you can see from various opinions posted on this forum, most people have a different view of the quality of this coin. I am almost certain that if I present the same coin in a slab that says VF, I will get a different response to it - more critical. So I would not want to "ruin" the response to the coin or introduce doubts into the aesthetic appreciation of it, by having it in a downgraded slab. While if I get a slab that says EF, it'll make me feel better and more enthusiastic about my purchase.

It's like owning a panting by Monet or some such (I don't got one), it is nice to sit there and look at it from time to time, but it is also nice to know that is certified with whatever official looking paper it can possibly be certified with.

BTW, there is a better one (maybe) on eBay right now, the start was at 250 US:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=320210088063

I wouldn't advise to send this one to NGC anyway. The most probable result will be "your coin cannot be encapsulated" because of "Planchet Flaw" and you will just waste $20

Thanks, I thought they wouldn't like it.

Hi, there are 3 handicaps,
firstly this coin is shown thru the plastic of a holder, 2ndly the unknown nature of the darker parts of discoloration (do by no means doctor them carelessly!!!!, the overall appearance is attracting), 3rdly the serious planchet defect.
This is a coin for an amateur. You like it or you like it not. The type was flatly struck. For that it shows very little wear - after more than 200 years. A rare condition. But I'd say it is difficult to put a grade. Personnally I'd not buy it at XF price, because the planchet defect could be accepted anywhere but not like this across the face. I'd grade it VF. But I wouldn't want to buy it unless very cheap. It would be difficult to find a buyer. You asked for opinions and this is mine. Sigi

I was worried about the planchet flaw, when I was buying it. But I decided that I can live with it. But thank you for clarifying the grading impact - and this goes to all who replied.

As far as buying things very cheap, I am a big fan of that practice, but when was the last time you could actually get anything very cheap? I got this one of eBay for about 180 US, and I thought it was reasonable considering recent prices.

Sigi, don't you think you're being a bit harsh?

I agree the lamination is distracting located on the portrait and would be less so if it was in the fields. But I don't find it THAT bad.

In the Kuenker auction at the end of this month, the following coin will be offered for sale:



I think you will agree that the flaw in this coin is somewhat more serious than the one on alexbq2's 20 kopeks coin.

The Kuenker coin has a presale estimate of 3,000 Euros (about $4,430). I would not be at all surprised if it sold for double or triple that amount.

Is it also "a coin for an amateur"?

I am sorry . I meant the word "amateur" in the sense of "lover", not in the sense of dilettante. English is not my mother tongue. I meant the word amateur in its French sense of "un amateur de musique" "la collection d'un amateur". By no means was I going to hurt anybody. I wanted to express that collector tastes are different. One likes a certain coin or not.
One prefers an XF coin/planchet lamination over a VF perfect planchet - or the other way round. Luckily tastes are different. Drushba, Sigi

Thank you for the clarification. I obviously misunderstood you.

I did not mind the amateur remark. I am an amateur in both senses of the word

This one just sold in the Kuenker auction (different date but basically the same type):



It brought 460 Euros (about $684, add another 15% for the juice) on a 200 Euros estimate, which is substantially more than you paid for your coin.

I think your coin is much more attractive.

Do you still think you need NGC to validate that you made a good decision when you bought your coin?

Thanks for the info. These auctions are getting outrageously expensive!

I'm not as slab crazy as you think I've only got a couple. The idea to slab this coin has passed. I was trying to gage opinions of people who are more aware of NGC's grading practices. If I could hope to get NGC to grade this coin without a major deduction for the planchet flaw, I'd do it. Mostly to avoid people telling me that this coin is VF-, since the portrait is ruined. A sort of an anti-"nay sayer" voucher. But that's not really gonna happen.

But honestly 460 Euros? Isn't that a bit too much? Markov had some at way better prices as I recall. And some guy on eBay just sold one for 250 US, and nobody was bidding??? Well 1 guy was...

On a completely different note I just accidentally bought 3 - 1975 mint sets (I got curious). Anyone needs one or two?

I thought auction prices were outrageous and overdue for a big fall back in 2000-2001. Was I ever wrong!

Now those "crazy" prices look very cheap.

I remember a time (not so long ago) when you could easily buy Peter I gold 2 roubles in decent collectable shape for $500-$600 each. The one with the big crack I showed earlier in this thread just sold in the Kuenker auction for 12,000 Euros (about $17,850) hammer price (15% more with the juice), which is reasonably consistent with other recent sales.

It seems that every time I say prices are too high, they just go higher. So now I am more cautious when it comes to expressing such opinions.

try to have a quick look on worldcoingallery or the krause libraries.

Hi forum people, just did not want to open NEW topic since its easy question.

When coin recieved from NGC graded for example MS61 with Extra sticker on it such as: "IMPORTANT MESSAGE** This NGC Coin, Certification #XXXXX has been evaluated and is a good candidate for NCS Concervation...."

What is that means? Is it means if I send this coin to NCS they could cleaned it and mail to NGC or?
Coin got NGC grade BTW.

Please help.

Thanks, and sorry to post this topic.

The Best,
M,

It's time to think about to say: "bleah, cheap stuff!" So maybe the prices will go down

It means that NGC gives an advice to do conservation of the coin in the slab through NCS. Then coin may be graded again by NGC usually in the same or sometimes higher grade. Since NGC and NCS are affiliated you do not need to re-send the coin to NGC after NCS, they share the same premises. All you have to do is to submit the coin to NCS and specify on the invoice option "NGC grading after NCS conservation".

WCO

Thank You WCO, I was thinking the same way, but was not sure.
So All I have to do it send it (NGC Slabbed with paper-sticker) to NCS and they after Conservation will send it to NGC and NGC will mail it back to me is that correct?

But there is no way from NGC side to refuse to grade coin after this procedure right?

M,

First you have to call NCS and ask them to send you NCS invoices. You'll see they are different from NGC invoices and they do have option to grade through NGC after NCS conservation (if coin is problem free). Then you just fill out NCS inoice and send it with your coin to NCS address. NGC have the right to reject the coin after conservation but in 95% cases they will slab your coin again. NCS "no grade protection" policy is here: http://www.ncscoin.com/conservation/grade_protection.asp

If you want to learn more how all this works I suggest you read NCS web site: http://www.ncscoin.com/conservation/index.asp on a process, services and fees, etc.

WCO