Happy Holidays!

I hope you can help me with this. I bought this coin on eBay from a guy in Belorussia. It is suppose to be a Vladimir's Serebrenik. I did not pay much for it, so I assume it is a fake. It is made of copper, but according to an article I read, most Serebriniks were in fact not made of silver. I found a few images that sort of match the coin that I have. Of course I've never actually seen a Serebernik myself, so I can't really judge what I so adventurously purchased. I would appreciate if anyone could shed some light on this coin for me.



Picture Link

Thanks.

My browser just times out on this link so I can't see your picture.

However, the Odessa Numismatic Museum has this picture of Vladimir's Srebrenik which might be helpful:

Thanks. So the link does not work? I used that imageshack. Works fine on my end, but...

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/129/serebrenikjk6.jpg

...it just times out on mine. Sorry.

BTW, the srebrenik is not something I know a great deal about, having only seen pictures.

I.G. Spasskii has more illustrations in his book "The Russian Monetary System".

I've never seen a real one either:(

What bothers me is the links not working. Let me try again:

http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=serebrenikfp7.jpg

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5347/serebrenikfp7.jpg



[IMG=http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5347/http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5347/serebrenikfp7.th.jpg]

The images work for me, but they are not real clear. I know absolutely nothing about these coins, I have never seen one, and my opinion is worthless. With that caveat, my one reaction is to the many pellets making up parts of the hair, beard, and border--they seem too well done and appear modern as opposed to the one example of another serebrenik. But as I say, mine is not an informed opinion, just a first reaction.

This I can see fine. I notice it is a different server in the domain. Maybe that is the problem?

Oh, I uploaded the picture to the imageshack again. Seems that this time it worked.

I would agree with Bill, the coin that I have looks a bit too good to be from the 11th century. Also there are only about 300 known serebreniks all around. But if you recall I found a seller on eBay with 2 certified wire kopeek novodels. I posted my discovery somewhere on this forum. I had no idea that there were novodels of anything pre-imperial, apart from some False Dimitry and Alexei gift money. So the coins sold by that dealer really surprised me.

A few people on this forum know a lot about the workings of Russian mints. Would they cut new dies of antique coins just for the collectors? Would they go as far as making a copy of a Vladimir's coin?

Most likely this is just a fake (might be an old one). But I am still intrigued!

From everything I have read, the answer is "yes" (although I don't know that novodels of Vladimir's Srebrenik were actually struck). I would not be surprised if such novodels were made, because Spasskii says the discovery of the srebreniks created much excitement among collectors at the time.

You could get coins struck in different metals, restruck from original dies, from new dies, in double weights, a coin with the obverse of one ruler and the reverse of another, anything you wished as long as you could pay for it.

In medals, it was common practice to copy old medals when the dies wore out. For example, the medal for the birth of Peter I by Peter Paul Werner was later copied by Samoila Yudin, but with a blank spot where Werner's name once appeared. Apprentice mint engravers also copied medals as part of their training.

It appears that this practice of copying medals might have contributed to the development of coin novodels because collectors often included medals in their coin cabinets. The sharp distinction we see between collecting coins and medals today was not always so clear.

For example, there are gold jetons that are not normally considered coins. But at least some of them are struck to the ducat
standard. And ducats were widely accepted as payment in trade even though they did not carry a denomination. And there are gold medals struck as multiple ducats. So the dividing line between coins and medals/jetons is not always so clear as we might think.

From the pictures alone, I am somewhat suspicious as the lines are too well defined in your holed coin against the one illustrated - I imagined genuine serebrenik can be quite tough to find as well as for something that is really old, it's too "circular" - for quite a fair amount of such coins that I have seen, they seem to be very irregular as well as on clipped, damaged etc if you know what I mean.

I agree. I am theorizing that this may be a novodel. This is a new theory to me. When I bought it I thought it was a curious fake, but now I'm entertaining another possibility, although if it is a novodel why would it be holed?

I'm no expert in Srebreniks, but I do know that they are sufficiently rare to command a high price at auction, at least several thousand dollars. Why sell such a coin on ebay for a much lower price if it is real?

I agree that the fact that you "did not pay much for it" is probably a pretty good indicator of its authenticity.

I bought it a couple of years ago, from a seller in Belorussia with an exceptionally low rating (I think it was 3). Before buying it, I googled his handle and interestingly enough found a couple of his posts on some forum asking the exact same questions I am asking now:) Overall I am pleased that I actually got it, since he was for some reason kicked off ebay shortly after. He had a bunch of other very puzzling coins. A few livonaises in some brass looking metal, a couple of I think dimitrii wires (scan was not clear), and I think some early soviet pattern - the one with the tractor. I would have bought the rest but he was expelled:(