http://cgi.ebay.com/RUSSIA-RUSSIAN-10-RUBL...1QQcmdZViewItem

Edit: link fixed

The above link does not work but this one should:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=110208253085

RWJ

Thank you.

I am the seller of the coin and I was guaranteed it was genuine. Now I see some people calling it fake and I would like to know more before I close my eBay offer. Any more examples of fake 1908 10 rouble? Who is the manufacturer?
Please help! I really wouldn't like to sell fake!

None of my references list a 10 roubles (or a 5 roubles) struck with 1908 date. If none were struck, then how could your example be genuine?

Perhaps you should ask whoever "guaranteed it was genuine" how they know this when the experts don't know of a such a coin?

If I claim that I am 300 years old with 2 heads and six eyes and you don't believe me, a reasonable person would ask me to provide proof that what I say is true, not demand that you prove that what I say is false.

You claim to have a genuine example of a coin unknown to people who have devoted significant portions of their lives to studying Russian coins and have no knowledge of such a coin ever being struck. Rather than asking those who question its authenticity to prove it is fake, you should provide proof that it is real.

Claiming that you were "guaranteed it was genuine" by some unknown person and that it comes from some unspecified "well known Croatian collection" does not meet that standard.

I agree with everything you said but give me a way to prove that this is true. How does someone prove that the coin is true if it is not listed in the books and the experts don't know about it?
How many fake 1908 you know of? Who is the manufacturer? Even though I can believe the experts - 1906 has only 10 known pieces! If the tradition was to mint no less than 1000 pieces, than I would say that the only one 1908. 10 rouble would be fake.
How can I prove that the coin is genuine? Only by the word of experts? How many times the experts were wrong? Do you need better pictures?

I understand that recently many fakes are coming from China since the value of roubles doubled, but still the coin came to my friend's possession a while back. Before the chinese fakes...

It is a definite fake. The head of Nicholas II, for example, is badly done and not
even close to the genuine dies. This is the first such coin I have seen, however,
and have no idea who made it except that it was not done at the St. Petersburg
Mint during the reign of Nicholas II.

RWJ

Precisely.

Your auction description says there is one other known example of this coin:

"Here is the link to only other known piece:http://www.imperialrussia.com/bookscatalog...alsbook18c.html"

The referenced url is to a book which describes award medals from the latter half of the 18th century. Why a book about 18th century medals would be describing a 20th century coin is beyond my understanding.

http://www.imperialrussia.com/goldcoins/19...0goldruble.html

This is the good link to the coin... How about this one? Is it also fake?


What I am saying is that the pictures a not of the finest quality and I will definitely get better pictures. So far, i haven't found a single evidence that this year did exist except for the actual coin! But why would somebody bother creating 2 copies of 1908 rouble? Non existing year? Why not making 1906? It exists and it is rare enough to make good money!
I am sorry but all your "evidences" are not giving good reasons to drop this...
Is there an old (1910's) catalog of Russian coins? Is there a list of mints by the St Petersburg Mint?

We have set a very high reserve price and probably no one will meet it. After the auction is done, I will look for some coin experts to verify if the coin is genuine or not.

How many 1908 10 Rouble gold coins you know of?
Even fake, it would still be rare What would be the value of a fake one?

Hi lucianoalan. Gold is not my area, but I will say you have already been talking here to some of the world experts in Russian numismatics. Anyway, please let the board know what other opinions you receive.

With kind regards

Steve Moulding

It is fake because:
1. Hair on the head and beard of Nicholas II made roughly
2. Feathers on the eagle heads also made roughly
3. Proportions of details on the coin are not the same in comparison with genuine coin

Please comapre with genuine one
http://www.numizmat.net/upload/iblock/4f7/10vwl%201899.jpg

You need to remove your listing from e-bay or change description of that fake coin

Let me get GOOD pictures first so you guys can compare. I did some photoshop superimposed comparison and the size, proportions and position are almost perfect. I will wait for the better pictures and then make the final comparison.

I understand that I am dealing with top experts on Russian coins but so far I haven't seen the proof that this is fake and no one is answering my questions.

I will most definitely remove the eBay listing as soon as I get the proof that this is fake.
Is anyone interested in examining this in person?
This is rare. Extra rare even if fake!

How exactly can you expect it to be a genuine coin when there are no records of such from St. Petersburg? Uzdenikov's catalogue shows no record of such coin struck. RW Julian is a well known author for Russian coins as he has written a few books and journals (I'm very ashamed of not owning any copies) as well as the editor of the Russian Numismatic Society - you should be able to google it up.

The problem of counterfeit these days is that the technology is growing very rapidly that it's getting very difficult to detect counterfeits with your own mere eyes. Gone are casting as these are deemed outdated and in comes something called electro-spark if I get the name right. Software modelling only makes it easier for counterfeiters to make excellent counterfeit / fantasy coins and mass of the coin isn't too difficult to counterfeit either if you know a bit of maths and element weights.

It might be worth it's gold weight if it is determined to be gold but otherwise if that is worth more than that, I might as well open a chain somewhere and start counterfeiting such high quality "coins" - it makes no sense why they should be worth so much more for a non-existant coin.

This is ridiculous! The only gold coin minted by Russia in 1908 was the 2-1/2 imperial (a donative or souvenir coin) with nominative value of 25 roubles weighing 32.26 g of 0.900 gold (corresponding to 1 troy ounce of fine gold). The design is totally different from the regular business strike 10 rouble coins, and as others have pointed out, it is IMPOSSIBLE that this coin could be genuine!

But since you insist that this is an unlisted coin, I took the trouble to visit the web site at the link in the auction description.

First of all, it is quite unlikely that such a unique coin would have been sewn into the cover of an old Bible instead of residing in a museum.

Secondly, the image of the edge shown in the link shows very clearly the mintmaster initials "(А.Г)" (for Apollon Grasgov) which is also impossible, because by 1908 Elikum Babayants was mintmaster. The correct initials would have to be "(Э.Б)".

Thirdly, the hair in the portrait of the auction coin looks totally different than that of genuine coins. The image at the web site seems to show the obverse of a genuine coin because the heavy rim knock visible from the reverse side is missing.

What does this coin weigh? Or did you never take the trouble to weigh it yourself?

What surprises me is that there are already 9 bids on this coin -- don't people do any research anymore before spending their good money??

If you hold the mouse pointer over the item in the left-hand side column "Gold Coins", a second menu will pop up with the caption: "1908 Unique gold 10 rouble".

This fact alone is conclusive and irrefutable proof that the coin is false.

Thank you. I had made the assumption that when a link was provided, that it was a direct link. The absence of any suggestion that further menu navigation was needed did not suggest that my assumption was incorrect.

What I am surprised is to find out so many experts jumping on this poor coin with very few evidences that it is fake! Only you, so far, gave some hard evidence. Everything else was just thier word against mine and I HAVE THE COIN and they never even saw one!?!?! I raised so many questions in this post and NO ANSWERS whatsoever!?!?!? Who was the counter fitter? How many fake 10 rouble 1908 you have encountered? WHY would someone bother with fake year when 1906 is FANTASTIC opportunity for forging? What if there are 10 pieces of 1908 lost in the war of 1917? You did have a terrible wars and revolutions going on for decades...
Even thouh, this post is quite convincing with proving that this is fake, please people, give me the answers!

The style alone condemns it. The portrait is very badly done and this observation has
nothing to do with the quality of the photographs. I have the St. Petersburg Mint reports
for this period and no 10 rouble coins are listed for 1908.

It is of course possible that the Imperial Mint made 10 rouble patterns in 1908 (which would
not have been in the mint report) but this piece is so poorly executed that it cannot have been
a pattern.

It is also worth noting that modern counterfeiters often make mistakes when preparing their
dies.

RWJ

Too many sellers post the weight of a genuine coin, which can easily be looked up in a catalogue, but never weigh it themselves ... the weight is probably off by a significant amount; such fake coins are usually somewhat too light. You might want to look up an older thread here which concerns a fake 1899 ten rouble coin. It weighs almost the correct amount, but is a little off (8,4g). Again, the wrong mintmaster initials give it away. (Anyone have a link handy to this thread??)

Another detail, which YOU have provided, gives away this coin as a fake. Here is a link to some genuine coins:

http://hairgrove-goldberg.com/Gallery/Russia_10_Roubles

Now compare the close-up image of the lettering on the left side of the obverse which you have posted with that of some genuine coins. You will see that the letters are much too close to the denticles on your coin, especially the top of the "Й" in "НИКОЛАЙ".

Lucianoalan,

As I see you reside in Republic of Croatia. When you see a coin denominated 7 Kuna 37 Lipa will you need any evidence that it is not genuine? Or you will think it's a unique and rare coin that no one ever seen?

The same is with 1908 10 Ruble coin. It's the same odd since there were no such coins in existence on the first place. No one need to hold it in his hands to know it's a fake, no one need any evidence at all since it's obvious.

You still can sell it on e-bay but need to change description and specify that it is not a genuine coin but a fantasy piece. If it is made of gold then it worth at least its gold content and then there may be people who may want to buy an odd thing and ready to pay more. In this case you will be saying the truth and can sell the coin.

WCO

I think this is the thread.

Just in case the seller is still not satisified with the proof given here, here is one scan from Uzdenikov - very commonly used in many references.



As seen, there are no coins struck in 1908.

Unless I misunderstand the seller, his position is that the coin exists and is genuine. The fact that the coin is unlisted in all catalogs, unknown to the greatest numismatists of the 20th century and unrecorded by the Mint, merely demonstrates the deficiencies of the catalogs, the knowledge of recognized experts and the record-keeping of the Russian mint.

Thanks Julian. I am sure that quality of the photo has a lot to do with this and i will supply the best photos probably tomorrow.
Please let me know something related to this weight of 8,6 g.
If after the new high res photos I get the same answer from you, I will agree that the coin is fake and that will be the end of story. I will tell my friend that it should be removed from the ebay and re listed as fake. We have put a very high reserve so probably no one will buy it...

I don't think FAKE is the right term here: FAKE implies that there is a genuine example in existence. I'd call it a FANTASY coin.

I believe we have exhausted all resources here. There is nothing else to add.

Agreed.

<Who is the manufacturer?

Well, at least, I can say, it is not, definetely, SPB mint.

<I am sorry but all your "evidences" are not giving good reasons to drop this...

I am sorry too, but you have to have a very good references to give a very good reason about the existence of such coin. Let's say, you are coming into major aucton and you are claiming that you are selling the original of United States Declaration of Independence. Do you have any proof that this is original?

Thanks, grivna1726! I guess I was too lazy to look it up ...

Here are the images I promised a while back. My friend was away fro the holidays and got back this morning.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_11.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_10.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_09.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_08.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_07.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_06.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_05.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_04.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_03.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_02.jpg


I hope I get some conclusive opinions based on these pictures even though I know that you have made your point before the coin even appeared )

Please take a good look at all the images and, if you need some more, just let me know.

1. Look at the denticles -- your coin's denticles all have the wrong shape, both on obverse and reverse! Also, they are very irregular and mushy-looking. Compare with genuine coins.

2. Again, this is the wrong mintmaster -- only Elikum Babayants was MM in 1908.

3. The obverse lettering is too large and too close to the denticles.

4. The part in Nikolai's hair is too straight; genuine coins show more curve there.

5. Nikolai's forehead is too protruding -- looks almost like a Neanderthaler!

6. The inside of the "0" in "10 rublei" is too narrow, and the small parts of the letters in the denomination are too thick.

7. Pictures such as you have shown with the weight can easily be faked ... there is a suspicious darker area in the background around the display which looks like it might have been photoshopped.

I'd like to point out that there are fakes which are much more convincing -- the 1899-AR ten rouble coin discussed previously here is very realistic compared to the way your coin looks. Your coin is definitely, and quite obviously, a fake.

I have looked at the photos and find the following:

1. The head of Nicholas II is badly executed, the beard in particular.

2. The reverse is not the standard reverse as there are several differences. Even if we assume that
the obverse is an unadopted trial by a Mint engraver, the reverse used would have been from the
standard hub used in 1904 and 1909. There was no point in making up a new reverse hub when one
was already in use.

3. The wrong mintmaster initials on the edge; they should be EB. The edge lettering also seems cruder
than genuine specimens.

In my opinion, therefore, the piece is not a genuine product of the St. Petersburg Mint during the time of
Nicholas II.

Some years ago there was a fraud in Canada in which false dies were made and 10 rouble pieces struck
as collateral for a bank loan. It is my understanding that the first batch of pieces were of good gold but most
were just plated. (I cannot give a reference for this story but it was told to me by a reliable dealer.) I wonder
if this1908 piece might not have been part of a similar scheme in Europe during, say, the 1920s or 1930s when
the incorrect date of 1908 would have meant nothing.

RWJ

Now I have to admit that this is a fake. Contrary to Bobh opinion, the photoshop has not been used on ANY occasion while I was preparing this. Even though, I am a photoshop expert and faking weight, color and even lettering would be a piece of cake, I STRONGLY believe in true antiques and only genuine pieces are of value to me even when selling. That is why I am making such a big fuss of everything. I definitely wouldn't be here discussing this with the experts!

The story about this coin us that my friend bought it with an Italian lot years ago. We are from the Zadar area which was part of Italy for a while. The story you are telling of the 20's and 30's seems pretty good! The only thing that bothers me is the wight which is correct .

We will not remove the coin from eBay just to see how much the people are wiling to pay. Just to inform you, the reserve is too high for them to reach and there are 50 people watching this auction daily. Like someone on this forum mentioned, it is sad to see people interested in this coin and bidding without any sort of research! The coin will remain with my friend as a curiosity.

Anyway, thank you all and I hope I wasn't too much of a pain raising all those questions! )

Your comment is interesting and some further thoughts occur to me:

1) If this had been made as a fraudulent scheme of some kind, say as collateral for a bank loan,
then a correct weight would have been important. Under such circumstances the bank would
have tested the first lot for purity and value. Later, perhaps, spot checks for weight would have been
sufficient.

2) There is another possibility. In the 1950s and 1950s counterfeiters in Beirut were turning out
large numbers of false pieces with the correct amount of gold. The profit came from the premium
on gold coins. In some cases the Beirut forgers used deliberately wrong dates so that they could
not be accused of counterfeiting. Perhaps this 1908 piece is a product of a such a workshop and
was not sold widely because the Lebanese Civil War disrupted the counterfeiters before very many
were produced or sold.

RWJ

I would have to say that this Lebanese story sounds pretty convincing! That would explain weight, coins and the year! It really puzzled me why would someone counterfeit only few pieces of 1908 - non existing year! If you are making a lot of coins, then there must be a good purpose (like for these Lebanese) and putting 1908 does make sense. Still, they made few serious mistakes (like the name of the Mintmaster) which proves that the guy who was supervising the operations was not an expert. Anyway, this would probably tie it to Italy even better than the Canadian story since Lebanon is closer and still is one of the richest countries in the Mediterranean. Good oportunity to sell some fake coins!
Good stories here!

so what if someone happens to hit your reserve???? I find it kind of shady for you to leave it up on e bay "just to see what people are willing to pay"...I think that may show some true colors here folks

I agree 100%. For those so inclined, this can be reported as a violation of eBay listing policy through this link:

Report eBay violation here

The above link points to another link on this forum which contains the link to the eBay site.

Done.

If the seller now acknowledges it to be fake the listing must be revised/withdrawn.

Steve

As of December 27/07 at 5:45 pm Pacific time, the unrevised auction is still up and running.

Bidding is currently at $255 (reserve not met) with 2 days and 18 hours to bid remaining on this acknowledged fake.

I also just now reported it to eBay. If enough people report this, maybe they will end the auction and/or NARU the seller.

still up and running this morning...

Reported in the faint hope that it might help.

i reported it as well yesterday

Reported it to eBay. Let's see how many reports it takes to remove this auction.

Also reported the item....

This piece is actually showing up at the bottom of this web site??

Yes, that's the one. I might be mistaken, but I believe the ads are chosen by ebay, not this website.

lucianoalan: I am the seller of the coin
lucianoalan: Now I have to admit that this is a fake.
lucianoalan: We will not remove the coin from eBay just to see how much the people are wiling to pay.



So, in case the "coin" is sold, with reserve met, what you gonna do? Sell it? Or you will tell to the buyer that you were trying to sell a fake?