I got this e mail this morning:

Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville.

For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts.

We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money.

But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been taken.

This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the paper currency too.

The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people’s hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form.

I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions.

Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don’t let this happen!!! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal – to return America to a value based currency.

Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.


Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and their dollar sinks to a new low.

Bernard von NotHaus

Monetary Architect

Fascinating...I did not know such a venture even existed.
I'm curious as to the events that led up to this raid...I'll have to read up.

This story has not been picked up by major news outlets, so a word of caution that this could be one of his rumours.

it was picked up by local evansville news so i bet its legit

http://courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/15/l...-office-raided/

I don't know much about this, but this sort of sounds like stamping out the competition to me... "Welcome to the world of business," if anyone here is a fan of Futurama...

Hm. Never paid much attention to the Liberty Dollars before....

While I haven't read the actual law on it, I have read in mony other places that federal reserve notes and us coins do not have to be accepted by the people unless it is for payment of a debt. It has been further suggested that we the people could decide on how to be paid.

Now, I'm not big-city-lawyer, so for the someone who may be, please explain to me this:

If these specie backed "rounds" and "banknotes" are illegal to use, then what will happen to the local currencies found in many municipalities throughout the land? Will they be relieved of their 'funds' as well? Is it because these Liberty Dollars are based at a company making money off people buying into their system?

mmm.. futurama.


but I do think its kind of fishy too.

Bout time they busted those schmucks!

Liberty Dollars are a joke...They take your money and send you a silver round...thats fine and good...in business to sell silver over melt value...not a problem. The problem is their stated purpose...its to make money but they project themselves as trying to do something noble like trying to get people on a silver standard...

If you buy the paper money, you are a fool...if you buy the silver rounds...at least you have a bit of silver and a novelty coin...otherwise...its a money making venture...

They have a list of a minute amount of people who would take these as payment and urge you to try to get others to accept it...they take silver and put a US dollar price to it pretty much defeating the purpose of going around the US fiat system...and if silver goes up past the denomination?

Well they have a solution to that!! For a small fee you can send back the silver you have and have it reminted....at a small fee of course The worthless novelty bills value will go up!! So you can have a bill no one will accept as payment that is worth its weight in silver

As for the legality of what they are doing...I wouldnt comment...but all they are in reality are sellers of fantasy tokens and bit better than a pyramid scheme.

Dont like the fiat system? It seems the makers of the Liberty Dollar dont have any problem taking your fiat money, that can be used to buy a new house...in exchange for a silver token that cant buy anything. If I offer them some of my bad old fiat money for a coin...they will happily take it. The liberty dollar is not going to be the solution to fiat money...and they know it...its a business venture plain and simple...its just a company trying to make money playing on sentiments of people who dont like the fiat system.

Ah but the Liberty Dollars are no better than FRN's, remember when the Liberty Dollar was $10 and then it got devalued to $20?

This story was apparently picked up by the Evansville Courier, but sources mostly information from Nuthaus himself, his personal email to them. This sounds like a fed line that he made up.

Foxnews and NBC have also covered it. There are youtube links in this blog post:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/016944.html

Okay, say I wanted to 'buy into' this scheme...
What do I send in payment?
Were people sending FRN monies, US Mint gold and silver (all of it seemingly worthless to them)?
Or were they taking only money orders and checks... which, by the way, go right back to the US mints.
Yep, a money making scheme it has to be, or why would someone go to all this trouble?

Just a thought.

Oh, by the way, when doing my genealogy I discovered two scaliwag ancestors... grandfathers a few generations ago... that were accused of making money... with their own machines. This was in Marion County Indiana.
Then before them, in a different line of scaliwag ancestors in Connecticut, a multi generational grandfather and his brother-in-law, were arrested for printing the money of Rhode Island.

Isn't this all just a lot of fun?

Corky

This has been all over the news here in Evansville.

I don't do any business there, though. Whew!

From what I've read, the notes are not the problem, it's the coins which are too similar and easily confused with US mint issues, that's how it all started. So whether it's Bay Bucks or Ithaca Hours, those local scrip currencies should be unaffected. If their coins were not denominated in dollars and did not have inscriptions similar to US coins, they probably would have had no problem either. If this was a legit way to bring back a metal standard, they should have denominated the coins in ounces (half ounce, quarter ounce, tenth ounce, etc.) and then just posted the daily exchange rate with fiat fed notes on the web each day, then all this would have been avoided. To cover their operating expenses, they could have simply charged a surcharge on the rounds.

Actually anybody can issue something and denominate it in dollars too, look at the Indian nations that are issuing these things. What comes into play with the Liberty Dollars, the coins, is that people have gone into businesses and attempted to pay, and were insistent that they were valid tender. This is where Bernhard Nothaus has gotten into trouble, he basically is saying they are money, when in fact in the eyes of the government they are not. Also he would have a better case to stand on if he did not issue the paper notes, and did NOT devalue his money by making the ounce of silver be worth $20 instead of $10 hypothetical dollars.

So in the governments eye, he is not afoul of regulation for issuing this stuff, it is that he calls it money, and expects people to tender it as such. The Ithaca hours, Bay Bucks in Traverse City which Mike Marotta was a part of, etc. are never referred to as money, they are more of a "value" that has redemptive means by exchange. They also have a purpose in keeping value in local communities and businesses and bypassing box stores like Wally World. I was invited to design the next round of Bay Bucks in Traverse, but so far they have not expressed an interest yet in changing what they have.

I can understand all of this, but how are the Feds justified in confiscating the headquarters' non-minted gold and silver?

Maybe Bernard von NotHaus and Ron Paul can get OJ Simpson to rob the office.

Then there would really be publicity.

If the Juice is squeezed into a prison cell, I don't think he will be helping anybody.

¿Quien sabes? Who knows? They taketh away in 1933, and I believe they will take it again when and if they decide to. When the *bleep* hits the fan, you would be amazed how not free you really are.

When one is charged with a crime, they will take possessions, at first those items that are related to the crime...and if found guilty...everything. If found innocent...it will be returned. If you sell drugs, they take all that might have been involved or bought with money from that endeavor...this is no different...

This is the second time someone has mentioned the confiscation of bullion and the outlawing of private ownership of such...this is in no way similar to that. Those people just had bullion sitting in safety deposit boxes...Norscam is accused of crimes...while I will not comment on whether it is a justified accusation...I have never liked them, they are not in anyway worthy of my concern as a private money making venture (a dishonest one at that) thus I will, like I do with any people charge with crimes...wait and see and are innocent until proven otherwise...right now in my mind they are just guilty of being dishonest and disingenuous....like so many other things though, people are so easily sent into 'sky is falling mode'. Of course these events mean that the government is going to take all mah gold about as much as allowing gay marriage will mean the next step is allowing people to marry the family dog (using this just to illustrate the hyperbole tactic used by people)...there is nothing about this case that suggests this in any way.

If they outlaw the ownership of gold I will be the first person sneaking into the woods with a chest and a shovel... But this in no way suggests that is on the horizon.

Money artist Stephen Barnwell recently wrote that some years ago the feds raided money artist JSG Boggs' studio and took everything. They never charged him and nothing was ever returned.

Necesita mejorar su espanol. Es "quien sabe," no?

I would say that if this is true, and of course who knows, then he should probably be doing something about getting his stuff back...If the government raided me and took my belongings, I wouldnt just say 'oh well' and not take action and make sure every news agency knew about my story and would never stop until I got my stuff back...

You don't know what they said in the way of threats etc. Guys coming in with guns drawn can be rather intimidating, even long afterwards.

That's not always the case. In certain situations, the government may confiscate other non-related items found in the same account or vicinity of the property related to the illegal activity. ref. 18 USC Section 984.





Exactly! ref. 18 USC Section 983 However, there are times where the government simply ignores the fact that they must return the property. It is unfortunately almost always the responsibility of the accused to ensure their rights are honored, and must either file with the hearing judge in a post-hearing motion if there was actually a trial, or request a case work from their Congress-critter to bring to the Committees on the Judiciary to investigate. Many people don't understand that their elected representatives have authority to investigate any government agency that their constituent may have a complaint against. Or the fact that judges will very rarely make a proactive move on behalf of an accused person, and attorneys will normally ignore the situation for the opportunity to cash in on further "services" that should have been motioned prior to adjudication.

Referring to Section 983 above, also note that it is the responsibility of any person who "purchased" these liberty dollars or paid for the Ron Paul items and never received them to file motions in Federal Court to get their paid for items from the feds, claiming "innocent owner" status.



I believe we are in complete agreement with the above statement.

I place Norfed/Liberty Dollar Corp. in the same class as SGS. Although I have absolutely no problem with the concept of barter and token/barter systems, the outrageous "pricing" scheme of the Liberty Dollar Corp. could be called nothing more than a pump and dump scheme. Their model was not based upon a silver or gold standard, as such a standard would value their "dollar" based upon the global rise and fall of silver and gold realizations.

On another note, however, I am very upset with the way the government has handled this in the fact that for years now, high level executive officials have been claiming that the Liberty Dollar scheme was not violating federal law, then to suddenly conduct non-judicial activity such as this is very alarming. If purchasers of these curiosities find a problem with our government's actions as well, then they truly need to exert their rights and file proper claims in Federal Court to bring their objections to light prior to any hearing on the matter.

Sitting there and crying that Liberty Dollar Corp. owes you because you paid for an item that was never received is simple complacency. The law is very specific regarding items confiscated by the government, and your rights as an owner if those items belong to you. Since the beginning, individual Americans have had to literally fight for their rights, and nobody else should be required to do your fighting for you if you have no intention of fighting for yourself.

Read the FBI Affidavit and it all makes quite a bit more sense why this apparently transpired:

Affidavit for Liberty Dollar

Is this for real? C'mooooon. This is a little too Hollywood sounding. I don't understand what is illegal about this?

Not exactly true. The feds and even local LE simply take whatever they like these days , often without charging anyone with any crime, and it's up to the owner to try to recover their property by legal means. Asset forfeiture laws are plainly unconstututional as per the 5th amendment which states:
"No person shall.......be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law..."

Unless you consider accusation "due process" no level of government has the authority to take anyone's property without a trial.

I read the FBI's affidavit, the whole dang thing, and I still cannot see the crime.

I am afraid the so referred to "Patriot Act" took care of that with all of it's deliberate vaguenesses. Basically the all powerful and omnipotent government can do whatever the hell they feel like now, they just "link" you to terrorism.

While I am an originalist when it comes to the Constitution, it's important to note that there are difinite exceptions to the strict reading of the Fifth Amendment. After all, should we just let violent men run free instead of incarcerating them before a trial? What of the case with an armed bandit killing people? Should police not be allowed to shoot and perhaps kill the bandit before a trial? The same is true for property, should we not seize assets related to the crime before the trial rather than letting the alleged criminal abscond with them to a place outside our jurisdiction? Is the system perfect? No, but before we go off on a path of doing nothing until a verdict is rendered in a court of law, we must realize the implications of that path, which in my mind would be chaos.

A very strong point.

What really gets my goat is not the Fed seizing property... my gut feel is that 99.99% of the time the fed is probably getting bad guys who have it coming, and that the .01% of the good guys who fall victim to the process will eventually get thier stuff back after the fed gets around to discovering that they are in fact good guys. The true constitutional breach in our society is not the fed seizing property of suspected bad guys, it's the seizure of property by states (enabled by the fed) from good guys in order to build a new shopping mall or subdivision, simply because the "private" group funding the seizure has more money than the present property owner/s. Seizure of private property from citizens of the US by other private interest groups is rampant and is most definitely Unconstitutional. The golden rule should not supercede the Constitution or Law,,, but it does all the time.

We should elect a president who would do away with the Patriot Act...

*cough* Ron Paul

Lot of people thought lots happened with the "Patriot Act", which yes, I put in quotes because I do not believe it is patriotic to surrender basic liberties because of fools. But there was a time in the Nation's history when Habeus Corpus was suspended, and people held without trial for long periods of time - the US Civil War of 1861-1865. Abraham Lincoln and his administration had numerous issues with Chief Justice Roger Taney regarding this, but one must consider that Roger Taney was also an obstructionist to much needed reform with slavery, and the rights of African Americans to serve in the military etc. Only his death in 1864 brought about much needed clearance and increased Lincolns power to see the conflict to a successful conclusion.

The threats to Americans and their individual rights were far greater, exponentially so, in the Civil War than at any other time in the nationhood of the United States. The nation survived those threats, Habeus Corpus was restored, and there seemed to be an understanding that the harsh interpretations of the Constitution were only temporary through to the conclusion of the conflict. We do not have a timeline for ending the "Patriot Act".

The government is doing nothing that it hasnt done well before the patriot act...you dont honestly think federal agents werent confiscating items that they believe were used in a crime, or gained through criminal enterprise long before the patriot act?

They had a warrant from a federal magistrate judge to seize property related in a crime. This is nothing new at all and is done all the time, well before the patriot act was ever conceived.

They are being charged with forgery, mail fraud, and wire fraud and those things confiscated are articles that are traceable to these crimes. I guess the difference is, this is not a guy growing pot in his basement so now we care more? Because of course if you grow pot in your basement they will, without doubt, take everything you own in the end...but if its a guy with a huge arsenal calling himself jesus or people minting alternative currency pretending to care about anything other than a profit....it becomes a different story.

In the end, nothing out of the ordinary has happened here...they served a warrant and confiscated property related to an enterprise that they believe they have ample proof were committing crimes. If they are found innocent, I have no doubt the items will be returned. The bright side is if he is found not-guilty...he might be able to sucker more people into trading usable federal reserve notes for his monopoly money...

Its good to have a healthy skepticism about the motive and actions of our government (even more so a company like Norfraud) but so many are so quick to think the sky is falling, so quick to cry foul...such things makes so called patriots out of scum...I will take a wait and see attitude, follow the case and see how it turns out, read more details before calling for revolution....the system has never been perfect and never will be...no need to constantly seek to knock it down.