Hi to All.

have an offer a pattern 1/2 kopeck piece 1961 slabbed by NGC as a AU-55
but the coin inside the slab is obviously a modern fake with "round shaped" letters CCCP - that fake is well known for me, and i"m sure - coin is a fake.

But(!) slab looks alike it was once caerefull opened and encapsuled again...

I"m of course would not to buy it, but this fact is important for me - do the NGC can grade fake coin - or original one"s was carefully replaced?

Pictures will be added as soon as it possible...


Regards
Vasiliy

slab number is 1812123-001

(wrong number was given priviously - my mistake)

Hi Basilio. Welcome to Coinpeople.

I am just curious, what gives an indication that slab was opened?
I have one slab that was opened by my friend (he did not want the coin in the slab). I am keeping it as a souvenir. It opened so nicely along the seam, that once you close it, it is very hard to tell that it was ever opened.

There is no slab number 181223-001 in existence. Number belongs to a 1793 Cent that was never slabbed due to damage:

Certification # 181223-001
Date / Info 1793CHAIN NGR DAMAGED
Denomination 1C


WCO

Here is apics for a slab- sorry about quality - has only a few seconds for it..

any idea about this artefact?

and 2 more pics.

regards

It seems to me ClCH2—СН2Cl was used to glue the slab. (Дихлорэтан). The question is how did they manage to open the existing slab...

I beleive that Basilio (привет кошара) gave you the wrong number of the slab. He gave you 181223-001 instead of 1812123-001. The sticker on the slab seems genuine for me.
looking on the pictures it seems for me too that the slab was opened and then паяльник (sorry do not know the english word) was used to seal it again. IMHO.

Cheburgen, Basilio did admit that he made a mistake with the slab number. Honestly I don't know what is wrong but it's quite damning to see a counterfeit coin inside the slab. Unfortunately I don't know much about Soviet pattern coins and I'll watch this thread with interest.

Certification # 1812123-001
Date / Info 1961 USSR PATTERN
Denomination 1/2K
Grade AU-55

So there was such a coin. Another similar coin was in PCGS slab also on Goldbergs, June 2004, lot 2302.

WCO

Huh!

Do that mean NGC grade a fake-coin? :?:


original patterns look's so:

possible scenario...

1. buy genuine slabbed rare coin at auction.
2. open slab, replace coin with fake of coin that was slabbed (same year, type, etc)
3. sell slabbed fake as geniune, (because it is in a slab)
4. sell original coin without slab, as genuine (because it is)
5. make profit equal to full value of rare coin.

not very nice scenario, but not too complicated to make money.

It means that NGC graded single fake of 1/2 Kopecks Pattern. This same coin you have. I even know who brought it from Russia and who graded it, etc.

WCO

Even worse, buy the original slab, copy the details of the slab and this happens:

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=16594

It was just a matter of time of that happening

This is a different story. In our case with 1/2 Kopecks this is (I believe) a honest mistake in authentication made by NGC. They actually graded fake coin as genuine.

WCO

Which leads to this, maybe they need to know what the world they are slabbing and authenticating before they slab and authenticate.

Do Not remember which Action was, but I saw that was sold 1/2 kop 1961 with rounded letters (cccp) I think it was proof coin, Heritage or Goldberg Actions, for last 1-2 year.
Anybody remember?

And second, I don`t think that possible to open NGC Slab without any damages, is that right?
I thinks its glued more than super, and makes two parts joined as a one full piece.

MM

Hi People

Check this link,

There is 1/2 kopeck 1961 which is looks like same type as coin slabbed.

Its Pattern 1/2 kopeck 1961 KM Pn377 SP63BN and Slabbed by PCGS

So which design is NOT fake?

http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=77459

Cheers,

This is the same exact coin sold on Goldbergs in June 2004, lot 2302 (as I said before) and then sold on Triton IX in 2006. Graded PCGS SP-63. This is also a fake. Both NGC and PCGS graded fakes of this kind. Interestingly enough that on Goldbergs it went for $3450!

Possibly a new owner (who purchased it on Goldbergs) found out that this is a a fake and decided to get rid of it and sell it ot Triton IX. He took a huge loss then since it was sold there for just $1600, more than 50% loss!

Or even worse, it was not sold on Goldbergs due to shill bidding and the fakeseller submitted it to Triton and sold it for whatever price.

WCO

Hmmm, Thank for that Info WCO, its terrific! Unbelivable! but We have to Beilive it!
fake fake fake,,, fake coins fake people, fake bidders fake sellers!!!
All Fake!!

Is there any Genuine coins around?

thats why instead of wasting alot of money on 1 expensive coin i rather buy alot of coins worth the same amount as that single coin cause no1 will bother keeping fakes in say junk bins , a coin worth 5 dollars or also say 20 dollars ....if they do its not a big loss

& fake slabs now, too...

On August 14, Khokhloma raised a question about a similar 1961 half-kopeck on eBay which was also a fake. The title of the thread was: 1/2 Kopek of 1961- is that for real?

In response, shtirlic posted these pictures to show what a genuine 1961 Pattern looked like:

http://www.arcamax.ru/files/proba/1961-06005-5-000-011p.htm

The first two photos match the ones shown by Basilio, but what does the third picture represent? It looks like a drawing or rendering with the 1/2 and the CCCP similar to the ones on the fakes.

Even after this "accident" when NGC graded fake coin (if slab not broken and coin not changed) we should say that NGC is one of the Best (if not best one) third party graded company that can garantee authencity of the coins.

Just some times when coins pattern like that 1/2 kop, and other Soviet strange patterns, they can do mistake...

Also mistake could be for rare commemorative rubles as a Gangut....

But rest coins included Rubles, Kopecks, even Gold 5 rubles (ecxluded some early 5 ruble coins) - impossible to coath fake inside the slab. (its my opinion)

If you look at the botoom of the site page you will see that he (Basilio) is one of the people listed there, so he can explain us excatly what is what
BTW we're facing in last months in Germany slabs coming from Poland with replaced coins (not necessary Russian)

Unfortunately, between the time I posted this question and this morning when I looked at it again, someone deleted the third picture I was referring to and did not bother to offer an explanation.
It is also missing from the original thread.

I know that I am NOT losing my mind and that the picture was there.

It is too bad that it is gone because I found it interesting that it so closely fit the design of the fake, and I was wondering if it was something that was planned and never struck.

It may have given us a clue as to why NGC made such a mistake.

Maya, I have seen it, don't worry. The owner of that site must be checking out this forum as well.

Here is a reference from 1993 by Nazarov V.A. called "Svodnvi Katalog, nekotorih protektov provnlh ..." (Sorry, having trouble trying to transliteralate Russian to English"

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4491/page4041uj7.jpg

Thanks gxseries! It's nice to know I was not hallucinating.

Hallo again!

1/2 kopecks with "round shaped" design of CCCP is a well known fake - minted ab. 15 years ago in Ukraine, and some time still available for sale there.

Pictures on the ARCAMAX.ru was placed as an illustration of fake, after original half-kopek pieces.

But then the site was transferred on another host some structure was broken and work incorrect.

after link for that site here I"m notice an a owner of the site about mistake and he remove a pics.


So bevare - if EVEN NGC can't find-out an fake and grade it...

Basilio, that is very interesting. Thanks for the infomation. By the way, is there any publication regarding about this? What I see is that perhaps NGC's infomation about Soviet trial coins are totally outdated and it would help them if there is a publication that mention about such counterfeits.

In 1998 came into beeing book A.Fedorin "COINS OF THE SOVIET LAND" - the firs edetion, half kop of that design was listed an a pattern - but some time later - that fake came in to numismatic circulation in tremendous ammounts and only there it was known and described as a fake...

In the second editioin - in 2004 this type was removed from the book at all.

I dont know any more publication about that coin.

Basilio, many thanks for the interesting story. Basilio, I have tried to look for a copy of the second edition but found it very difficult if I want to ship it out of Russia. I know I can find the first edition offered by Valeriya on ebay but not the second edition. How different are those editions other than the obmission of the 1961 half kop?

now available a third edition - just issued... at 2007 price in Moscow about 50-55 USD...

PM for any qustion...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=017