Hi all - first time to this forum, need some Russian coin expertise please. I have a 1796 EM 5 kopek that at first glance could pass as one of the overstrikes, but on close inspection one can clearly see the underlying pattern at roughly 30 / 35 degrees (both sides). There are some (other) interesting points as well....

[1] the coin is slightly flatter that the conventional coin
[2] the coin is slightly larger than the conventional coin
[3] the coin is still the same weight as the conventional coin

In other words, it is like a cookie fallen flat....

From the limited information I could get, it seems as if some double strikes have appeared over the years, although not many, but I cannot find a 1796 double strike anywhere..... Which is why I turn to you guys who have endless knowledge of Russian coins

Does any one have some info for me on this coin or Russian double strikes in general that could guide me in my placement of this seemingly rare coin in my collection? Any help or comment would be greatly appreciated

Thanx guys!

(photos can be provided if you require)

Photos are definately a must as we can't guess what you are trying to say here. It definately sounds like an overstrike or a double strike to me as during an overstriking event, the planchet will flatten and become thinner.

Welcome to coinpeople by the way

As gxseries already said, photos are indispensible in making any kind of judgment regarding coins like this. What you describe sounds like you have one of the Paul I overstruck 5 kopek coins. There are two edge varieties -- according to Brekke, edge 5 or 6 -- if it is edge #6, you have quite a rarity on your hands! Edge #5 is "only" scarce (marked with a dot).

According to Brekke's illustrations --
Edge #5 looks like this: XXXXXXXXXXXXX
This is the usual edge for EM and AM mints (AM edging has a larger "X", usually).

Edge #6 looks like this: \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Note that edge #6 is similar to edge #1: //////////////////////
except that it has a different orientation, and the angle of the slashes is more acute.

Get a copy of Brekke's "The Copper Coinage of Imperial Russia (1700-1917)". It covers most of the varieties and overstruck series; for anything from Catherine II beyond, it is pretty complete. Earlier issues have so many varieties that you would also need to consult Bitkin, Ilyin-Tolstoy and/or the standard reference of the Grand Duke Michailovitch. Brekke leans heavily on Ilyin-Tolstoy as well.

Looking forward to your images! I just love overstruck coins...

Thanks gxseries and bobh!
Appreciate your efforts....... thanx!
Doubt if it is a Paul I overstrike (top press still shows EI II..??)
Will do clear photos and post them a bit later (still worm-time here in RSA!)
Best
D

But they all do! What Paul did is to overstrike the 10 kopek coins with the old dies of the 5 kopek coins in order to revert back to the old copper standard which Catherine II changed late in her regime.

Hi guys
I REALLY have a problem logging on to this site........
I have created an HTML page with the pics at http://www.qstudio.co.za/coins/kopek_ds.htm
Not trying to circumvent protocols, or stepping on toes.....
just trying to get the info to you.... I have tried around 40 time to log in, and about 6 times to post this message....
Hope you get it this time... ;0)
Best
Deon

OK ... it doesn't look like Paul's overstriking, but an instance of a coin which was indeed struck twice. Interesting to me is that the reverse shows both devices as raised, while the overstrike on the obverse ("IE") has one of the instances incuse.

Sorry if we got your hopes up ... since this is an error coin and not a variety, there isn't any special premium for such coins unless you can find someone who is willing to pay a little more for it.

All just IMHO, of course ... I'm not really an avid copper collector or expert by any means; my main area of interest is Nicholas II.

Neat piece. It does seem to be a double strike. With the mad Russian market, who knows what people want to pay these days I don't see many 1793-96 5 kopeks these days - must be heavily wiped out these days

Once again my sincere thanks to bobh and gxseries for their time, effort and input....
Just to answer the incuse "EI"... they are both raised. From the photo it may seem as if one is incuse, but it is not actually.

So - now back to my original idea.... how many of these would be in existence? Probably a very small number, as normally double strikes are thrown back into the melting pot with the planchets

Hmmm......

The next question is - what is this little fella doing so far from home! We did not get many Russians at the end of Africa around 1800....

Thanks again guys!
PS - if you see another one, please let me know!
Best
Deon

Maybe it was the part of finances for some kind of tsarist revolution against the boers... Russians loves the diamonds too...
BTW I like your coin! As I know the premium for russian error coins are up to 50% of normal value - whatever means "normal" value today for roubles and kopeks...

BANIVECHI!
a Roman Emperor.... living in Romania... who knows about a BOER!!!
... I have a misplaced friend for life!!!!!
I AM impressed....

Off topic here, but I was highly interested about the history of Orange and Transwaal states, after at age of 10 I was read L.H. Boussenard's book "The Captain Casse-Cou".

http://www.qstudio.co.za/coins/kopek_ds.htm
As has been said the coin appears to be struck twice with the same dies. As a specialist of the series I can tell that I do not recall having seen something like this once or twice over many years of collecting. What intrigues me even more is the edge, obviously executed twice as well. I have no explanation for that. An interesting and rare coin in both respects (sides and edge). Sigi

Hi sigi
thank you for your effort in looking at the images and posting your view... I appreciate all comments!

I have literally spent H*O*U*R*S looking for another specimen all over the world (internet) and have not come up with a second one. Some numismatists around here are skeptical because the coin is so far from home... I am still convinced we have an "error coin" here and more than likely unique. Suppose it will be unique because [a] it is not a variant and [b] should there be another one it will not be identical

As a specialist in this field, could I ask you this please...... were these coins minted by hand? That would explain why the strikes on the two sides are out by different degrees...???

Thanks again for your input!!!!

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!

stuuuupid me.....
1796... of course by hand!!!
idiot! (me!)

see this topic from a while back..

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=15165

1796 was a rough year. this coin is shaped like a bowl, and has a sharp edge.

All coins at the Suzun and Ekaterinburg Mints were struck on a screw press.

WJ

Deon, I started collecting coins in the sixties. Already then (and certainly much earlier) dealers sent their price lists the world over. I lived in Germany and remember having received price lists then from German as well as from British, Swiss, Dutch, U.S., etc. coin dealers and auctioneers. Most price lists were without pictures and if so, only a few of the rarer silver or gold coins were shown. Imagine a South African coin collector interested in Russian coins, reading a description like gigantic 1796EM 5 kopeck copper coin - fascinating overstrike - bold VF/XF+... $9,95. He could order and have sent the coin to his country. But let me admit that I asked myself the same question when I saw a nice 5kop1803EM at Madeira, when spending holidays there in the 90s. Thus - the presence of this coin in South Africa explains nothing as to authenticity. Sigi

About relative scarcity of the piece. This coin looks for me as ordinary double strike with rotation. Error is quite common for Russian copper coins. What makes coin interesting is high degree of rotation of second strike vs first strike and large amount of details left after both strikes. Some premium for such an interestingly looking error possible to get, but not that much. Just my opinion.

WCO

There is something that I should mention though if you don't know too much about the history of Russian coins. Most of the 1793-1796 5 kopeks would have been overstruck to a 10 kopek and then overstruck again with an earlier die.



A 10 kopek would have looked something like this:

http://home.earthlink.net/~smoulding/catherineII-CIPHER.htm Thanks Steve

The question is, did it miss the overstriking stage and then went back in the overstriking chamber to be overstruck again (quite unlikely) or it's simply a double strike. I'm not too sure how on earth a 5 kopek would have been rotated and struck again - it's VERY heavy to be done so.

To me although I do not have the actual raw data, I think it's much harder to find a double strike especially with such huge angle rotation like what WCO said compared to a double overstrike. But again double striking isn't uncommon with earlier Russian coins.

Nevertheless, it's a nice coin