One of favorite coins - 1939 Jefferson, doubled Monticello and Five Cents

Although I am fond of this Kennedy (all of them, actually), the doubling is very slight.



In fact, to be very honest, I would have wondered if this were machine doubling, but ANACS thinks it's a DD.

This Jefferson has some very strong doubling.



But nope, that's machine doubling.

nice finds!!

Hi,
Awesome to see these errors! I have been collecting coins for about, well most of my life in one way or another. Something always draws me back to the errors. I dont have alot of errors in my collection but I'm working on it. Enjoyed your post and pictures. Shane

1884 O VAM 13 Double punched mint mark


1887 VAM-12 Alligator Eye



1887 O VAM-2 Doubled Date one of the widest double dates known.

ive been wanting to know this question.. what is the difference between machine doubleing and just a dd???

According to Mr. Daughtrey:

Machine damage doubling, or MDD, manifests itself in three basic forms, none of which has any collectible value by itself... one of these is generally attributed to a loose set screw in the die, which allows the die to bounce on the coin during coining.

We should all know about having a screw loose...

By the way, I think that this MDD is an unfair way to exclude us 'commoners'... those of us who cannot find really good errors... from the elite... 'those who find the best errors'.

What do you think all think about this idea?

Corky

thanks corky!!!

*Warning, another thing I must rant on*


Personally I like MDD coins, especially the very strong MDD's. I have a cent that shows strong doubling, and even slight separation in the wording of one cent, and it's a MDD, but it's a fantastic coin. And then there is that mushy metal that comes along with MDD, very interesting, and NOT DAMAGE OF ANY KIND!

Whoever says a MDD coin is damaged is either trying to protect the high and mighty doubled die coin prices, or not wanting to admit that this is really doubling. Okay, so the dies don't actually have any doubling on them, but the coin certainly shows doubling, WHY SHOULD THIS BE CONSIDERED POST MINT DAMAGE?!?!?!?!? Geh, I hate it when people try and claim that as truth, it's NOT.

Machine doubling is because of a loose screw, rattling die, loose collar, or some other issue when the coin is stamped, and it is made in the mint, and is not post mint damage. The coin is AS STRUCK, and should be treated as such, not excluded as a damaged coin. MDD is a commonplace, and interesting event in the coining process, and should be treated as an anomoly, not damage. It may not bring extra money at auction, but it creates many interesting stand-alone errors that shouldn't be scoffed at, but kept, just as a star note in a banknote collection, or an overinked banknote. It's not a doulbed die, it's not a traditional "error", but it's interesting, and to some people collectable none-the-less.

Heres a nice strong mechanical doubling I like.

eh i dont care what kind of doubling i find im gunna keep t!!!

Thing I like about mechanical doubling it's a real good chance of being one of a kind. You can't say that about die doubling. It's kind of like die clashes on morgans. Why does it matter if its a letter or not. Its still a clash or later die state. I've got a nice triple die clash morgan. You can see the "v" of the cap and hair on the right side/eagles left wing three times.

Very cool, I love die clashed, lets see a pic of that one!

The coin is AS STRUCK, and should be treated as such, not excluded as a damaged coin

Thank you thank you thank you... so eloquently put!
Almost exactly what I was thinking.

Love it. Now I can say I have some real error coins because they were minted like that!

Corky

At first I thought about making a new post, but it is "doubled" actually "tripled".

You can barely make out the middle line. With what I have for a camera set up its real hard to take pictures of some thing subtle. This took about 60 shots and it really doesn't show it well. This was the only shot that even showed something other then one line. Most did not even show the most prominent one. I put some lines toward the die clash lines.

How how does a die get doubled?

Very very cool!

one of my personal favorites is the 1934 D VAM 3 peace dollar.... there is lots of doubling on this coin... the profile is doubled.. along with the "D" in "god" and the spikes on the crown are fully doubled....

Here ya go Big M.. theres some good reading on this site -

http://www.bakercoins.net/learn/variety/ddie/index.html

FWIW, im with Corky & VFox.! The MDD is not tracable to a specific die, so in a way, they are more unique than DD IMO..

C.P

FWIW, im with Corky & VFox.! The MDD is not tracable to a specific die, so in a way, they are more unique than DD IMO..

Thank you again C.P.

Now I think I got it. Seems the only way they can positively identify the anomaly is because there is a certain die with that specific problem.
Well, I would think that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
What difference is it that I have one or two or three of the same coin and want to charge what the market will bear because the coin is rather unique? Sounds like the same capitalism to me.

Anyway, I probably should have put my opinion on a different forum. It was just at that moment in time I had the urge to put to paper my thought on the subject.

Corky

(I don't need no stinkin dye)

hot lips!!! i just bought one of those this morning!!

here is another of my faves...

1960 D Large date over small date.

1878 vam 7 spiked A


The '7' in the date is doubled on the left side and tripled at the bottom



Had to add the last picture since it was the same coin.

How about this one mechanical or die? What do you think? You have to look close like I said its pure luck when I catch a decent picture.



I'll answer later.

Heres a couple I have found in circulation.. The first coin is actually the second of its type I have found, which is why its listed For Sale.! Im pretty sure this is a '72 DDO, but please do correct me if im wrong.. The second coin is a Mechanical double reverse & is one of my favorites.

C.P

Here is some MDD on a cent I found in my change.

[quote name='Vfox' date='Aug 15 2007, 10:36 AM' post='341494']
Here is some MDD on a cent I found in my change.


Nice find.! A double error IMO.. It looks like its in excellent condition as well.

I found this one a month ago, I guess a clashed die is actually just another form of doubling as well.

This is the best (known) DDO of Belgium.





Regards,

Jos

very nice belgium ddo!!!

Here's a Spanish peseta with doubling...

1925 Stone Mountain commemorative half with doubling...

1936 Mercury dime...

wow nice doublers!!!

This is one of my favorite coins, that I own. I've posted it before and decided it was MDD. I think it's pretty.




Cool thread. There are some really cool dd's. I love the peace dollar. Talk about spikes.

Blackhawk, is that machine doubling or a DD? The Cherrypicker's Guide, Vol II lists a DDO with doubling on the date and STONE MOUNTAIN. The very small pic in the book looks a lot like your coin. The value is no different than for the normal and a notations says that a significant percentage of these halves were struck with that obverse doubled die.

I believe that the one that I posted photos of is the DDO that's in the Cherry Pickers Guide.

Either way I am super green about that stone mountain, that's a superb coin!

Can't wait to go upstairs and check my Stone Mtns!

Of the 6 Unc Stone Mtns in my collection, not one is a DDO. Bummer... :/

ANywho, a show on the travel channel about coins is on right now. Incidentally they're talking about errors and the Sac/Wash mule that came out a few years ago.

Im not sure about the doubling on this 2000 state Quarter.! Could be a DDO or simply doubled from die wear.. FWIW, The coin is also doubled equaly as well on the reverse.! Opinions are welcomed.. Second pic is embossed to show the doubling better..

Decided to bring this thread back up.

1889 s Morgan

Guess I should just jump in feet first and get used to things...some of what I've seen here disturbs me in a way.

Okay...basics to basics. Machine Doubling (note that I don't call it Damage) is the effect of loose parts in a machine that manufactures hundreds of thousands of coins per day. Many machines making many coins - well into the millions per day, tens of millions per week. Inspections of the pieces coming out of the machine is sparse - a couple of times a day. THUS...millions and millions pass through to bagging without a human eye looking at them to make sure there's nothing wrong with them. Machine doubling can happen on a dozen or a dozen million coins every day. The main point is this....the dies are inspected one for one. The coins are inspected one in a few million.

Now..for the dies. If a die receives doubling from a hub during its creation, the die setter is supposed to notice it. Hundreds of spectacular doubled dies were created over time that never made coins because the die shop did their job - they noted and destroyed the dies before they had a chance to make coins. It's only when the die shop didn't properly do their job did a die make it into manufacturing coins that received its doubled image. Now..we may argue that doubling is doubling, but when the doubling is the result of someone sleeping on the job and not inspecting a piece well enough, and not as simple as a set screw coming loose, there's where I want to be collecting.

Okay...so, machine doubling is 'neat'...sure, I'll give you that. Only thing is, machine doubling is very common. In some years' coins in certain denominations it can be gruesomely common - like 1968S cents...1969S cents. These things are SO common, finding a nicely struck piece without machine doubling is actually a bit of a challenge.

You might say that die life is a million or so coins, so a doubled die is repeated a million times over. In theory this could be possible, but my question is, WHERE ARE THE MILLION DOUBLED DIES?? 1969S cent - fewer than 200 pieces known in any grade. 1970S cent - fewer than 100 pieces known in any grade. 1958 cent - only two pieces known. 1936 DDOs, any of the three main dies - rare in grades above MS65. 1980 DDO cent - fewer than 500 pieces known in any grade. 1983 DDR cents - around 1,500 pieces known, and this is a modern issue...should be a million of them out there! Where are the other 998,500??

The fact is, there are NO known doubled dies in existence for which there are more than 30,000 pieces spoken for, and the king of kings, the 1955 doubled die cent is the most spoken for doubled die on the planet...and it's considered a rarity and goes for king's ransome money! At present we are around the one-thousand mark in cataloging different Lincoln cent doubled dies. In OVER 700 of these cases there are fewer than 100 pieces known to exist, and in at least half of those there are fewer than ten pieces known to exist. WHY?? Well, in part because they are truly rare. In another part because people are skipping over them every day, loupe in hand, and have no clue what they are looking for. Yes, true.

Yes, you have some nice machine doubling there. Some of it is very interesting to look at, and I'm sure very interesting to collect. I give it to you that it's indeed mint created doubling, and in a stretch it would be classified as a mint error...but it's not even in the same class as hub doubled dies. Sorry.

Oh...and as for posting images of doubling...gosh, so many to pick from. My site has over 11,000 images of doubling.

I think I'll pick the one published in all the mags of late - the 1982 DDR, recently discovered in Quincy, Mass, and submitted to me for photos and attribution. I nearly fell out of my chair when this one came in. Meet the 1982 cent doubled die reverse, 1982P-1DR-001. This thing sat dormant for 25 years waiting for someone to discover it, and to date is the only known piece of its kind...even though die life at the time this coin was struck would firmly suggest there are at least 15,000 brothers out there....somewhere.

(((the 1982 DDR, recently discovered in Quincy, Mass,)))

Oh my gosh, I have over three hundred rolls of pennies that I might have to go back and check each one to see if one of these was missed.... you are quite a task master.

However, I do appreciate your experience and talent!

Corky (very disturbed, most of the time)...

I have to agree with you, on all but the point of rarity.

Not to start an internet arguement or anything, but the fact that millions of machine doubled coins are similar is true, yet each coin is either unique or only a few of a kind. Think about it like this, the machine is jostling around smearing metal all around, but in those motions each coin has a unique look, a different degree of movement, and is an all around different coin. Sure millions are similar, but rarely is everything exactly the same. The worst machine doubling I've ever seen was on a single 2000-P Sacajawea dollar, the lettering was nearly obliterated and the metal had a "rippled" look to it. Elitism aside, if a coin is interesting, I'll collect it pure and simple.

I'm not arguing that each one has its own character, as does every coin. Every nick, mark, blemish.

The point here is that because a coin receives unavoidable chatter doubling in a press doesn't make it valuable. Footprints in the mud are all unique in their own way. The point is, when the die was made wrong, it should have stopped at that stage, but in many cases it didn't. Thing is, it happened far less than normal dies were made, thus are scarce. When the number of coins that have ever been found with doubled dies are considered, the whole subject rings of scarcity. There are some doubled dies I have been searching over 25 years to locate and still haven't.

The overbearing point here is that just because doubled dies are difficult to find and considered scarce and valuable by a majority of the market, this doesn't mean that machine doubling is the second best thing and should have value too. By and large, machine doubling is too minor for what it is, and is way too common to carry any premium value. There are a number of exceptions to the rule that do bring modest premium, but the rule still stands, and I didn't make it up.

Best thing, if you want resell value in your collection, is to learn the characteristics of doubled dies, learn the difference between doubled dies and machine doubling, and start seeking the doubled dies. They are a far more rewarding and valuable find, and are scarce - so don't plan on turning one up in every box. I do know people, however, who go through $100 in cents per week, and have turned up hundreds of doubled dies. It's all in a matter of knowing what to look for and what to toss back.

Don't get me wrong I'm not arguing about value, just uniqueness. I wouldn't pay a premium for a machine doubled coin, but I wouldn't avoid buying a coin because of it either. True doubled dies are surely the only thing that carry any kind of nice premiums, and have a true collectors value. I just like the fact that machine doubled coins are a easily found oddity, it's just something that looks interesting, little more.