Guys, what is the fair price for 5 Rouble 1841? The coin is slabbed by NGC MS64.

$1,500

Thank you

Too much

I see already a little bit more than a thou

http://cgi.ebay.com/1841-Russia-5-Roubles-...3QQcmdZViewItem

How $325 sounds?

That sounds like the price a few years ago, when Russian coins were less costly (and so was gold bullion). $325 sounds dirt cheap now.

Beleive it or not, 5 Rouble 1841 and 1842 in NGC slabs MS64 purchased a week ago from american dealer for $325 each. I still do not beleive myself and thought it was some kind of scam, but I got them today in mail

That is a very good buy. Deals like that are not easy to find these days.

As they say...when two people argue, one is a fool and another one is a bastard
same here - the dealers just had no idea what those coins cost (they are fools) and you knew but did not let them know (sorry, you're bastard

its better to be a bastard than a full

You're just jealous like the rest of us.

Congratulations Cheburgen, That's really a great buy

(You wouldn't, by any chance, want to share the name of the dealer would you? Just kidding!!)

But seriously, it's nice to hear that in today's depressing market it is still possible to get a great deal. I am really very happy for you.

It's probably a very safe bet that the dealer wasn't selling at a loss.

And if the dealer is satisfied with his profit margin when selling at $325, then why is it the buyer's obligation to suggest that he should increase that price?

The dealer is the numismatic professional. As such, it is the dealer's responsibility to know his market. It is not the collector's responsibility to educate him.

Want to have some fun with a dealer? Ask him the price of a coin and when he tells you, look at him with a shocked expression, say "You're kidding!" and immediately pull out your wallet. The look on his face will be priceless. (If you think the price is fair, you can actually complete the transaction.)

Yeah, I'm the bastard. I should say to the guy who is dealing with coins for 30 years that price for the coin is at least $1000 and I'll buy it for $1000. The only thing is strange that I did not see in my life any coin dealer (I'm not a dealer myself) who knows a real price for the coin and suggested to sell it to me for the half price. All I see that dealers are buying the coins in different places and selling them for the price 2-3 times higher of the original price. That's odd. They should say to me, look, I bought this coin for $200 and I'll sell it to you for $100.

He had only 5 gold russian coins. I bought 2 and the rest is 3 5 Rouble MS66 1902 and 1903. He was selling them for $115. Now I see he is selling them for $130 which is already in the range of the current market price. The rest, he has, a lot of american coins and he knows the price for them since he wrote couple of price guide books for american coins.

And what about 1842 ms64? it must be much expencive since year better than 1841

Probably $2250?

Oh, no. You're completely wrong here ! I do not buy coins any longer - just sell. So, I can not be jealous at all.

...but, anyway, Congrats , Cheesburger !

MS62 was sold here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...fromZR40QQfviZ1

Yes I saw it, but was thinking that $2200 price was high for ms62.
And since it sold out that fast for $1500 then I can guess that MS64 will worth not less than $2250
Since 1842 date not realy easy to find in that grade.

You can compare statistics in here:

http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/poplookup...+Matching+Coins

Considering the amount of coins graded for both years I think 1842 MS64 is close to 2K. 1841 MS64 perhaps 1K maybe a little less.

yes, I know about this, 1841 date most common for XIX c. coz was found in the banks for last years...

1842 not really rare date, but if to compair with 1841 is not really easy to find in really gem grades.

probably 1842 was found in banks too, but not that much quantity as 1841.

But anyway MS64 is MS64 for any date, so it should be on top.

I whould say for 1842 in MS64 price will be still around $2200

What would you say for 1841 in "MS-66" (5 graded at this level)?

Perhaps close to 2K too, maybe higher. MS66 is a very high grade for these types of coins.

I will pay $2500 for this grade.

Thank you to both Cheburgen and GHV for your replies.

GHV, I am intrigued by your comment about these coins being found in banks in recent years. Judging by the NGC census data, I thought that there must have been a small hoard of these appear on the market, but had no idea of the origin.

Do you know in which countries these banks were located? Was it in Russia, or some other place?

After gold ownership became legal once again in the US in the late 1970s, many US gold coins suddenly appeared that had been kept in the vaults of Swiss banks for half a century.

I'm wondering if a similar phenomenon was at work here.

Thanks for any light you can shed on this matter.

Those came from banks of the U.S., Canada and England after 1988. Part of Nordic hoard.

WCO

I think the same thing what Ilya said. They, perhaps, came from the same source where came most of 5 and 10 Rouble of Nikolay II period. Norwegian hoard. Who knows, BTW, what kind of coins still in the vaults from this hoard. Maybe, they still did not sell everything. 50 tons in gold coins it's quite a lot of coins

Hi,

You got already an answer, its from Norwegian hoard.
But I think most coins from that hoard was 1900-1904 5 rubles, some a little part of 1909 5 rubles which is rare.
Also 10 rubles 1903-1904, 1910
And some 5 rubles 1841-1842. (most 1841)

I do not know if there another gold coins in there.
But my opinion its done...

Thank you to all who replied.

I have read that there was a large shipment of Nicholas II gold coins that left Russia by train after WWI. I never heard where they went, but Norway is certainly a possible planned destination (even though Sweden and Finland are closer).

Maybe the 1841 & 1842 coins were part of that shipment of Nicholas II gold coins.

I think there must be a very interesting story about how these coins ended up in Norway!

Grivna, I doubht Sweden and Finland are good choices - they were still not on good relationships! Finland was under Russia and Sweden still resented the Russian navy so sending gold coins there would be easy money for them!

Nevertheless, from what I remember looking up the historical bank sales, the Bank of England fared the worst as it sold at the lowest possible time, somewhere at perhaps $400/oz. (someone can perhaps correct me?) The Bank of Australia had sold a fair amount of their gold hoard last year but they held mostly Australian and British - hard to tell if there were any other countries in their inventories.

I hope you can read russian

Первая мировая война.
Несколько тонн золотых монет царя Николая II, главным образом 1902,1903 и 1904 годов выпуска были тайно взвешены, упакованы, и помещены в два железнодорожных вагона. Специальный поезд доставил этот груз в небольшую северную страну - Норвегию, где эти монеты и пролежали до наших дней.
После Октябрьской революции 1917 года, когда большевики официально отказались оплачивать царские долги, правительство Норвегии отказалось вернуть эти монеты назад в Россию.
Несколько лет назад часть монет из царского запаса была продана в Нью-Йорке. Должностные лица Норвегии, в отличие от российских, (см. заметку "Золото Третьего Рейха") мудро продали монеты не как золотые изделия, но как предметы, имеющие большую нумизматическую ценность.

I beleive there is a little mistake in this text. In 1940 this gold was moved to England to avoid its capturing by Germany. But I maybe wrong.

According to the 1989 book Nordic Gold – The Facts of a Record, Norwegian gold reserves were moved by boat in late April 1940 to England, only hours ahead of advancing German troops. As early as 1938, however, much of the gold had been moved to the United States for safekeeping in case of war. During the war the Royal Norwegian government used some of the gold to finance various operations and it was this gold that was to find its way, via an unnamed European central bank, to the numismatic market.

RWJ

Thank you, Julian. Just a little add:

In order to save the gold of the Bank of Norway (Norges Bank), 3000 gold-bullions, a weight of 49 tons – a value of NOK (Norwegian Kroner) 240 millions- was loaded onto 25 lorries in Oslo in the early hours of the 9th. April 1940. The gold was packed in 818 big boxes, 685 small boxes and 39 barrels, all marked “NB”. Officer-in-Chief was Fredrik Haslund, and with him he had 30 soldiers as guards, but only one, the famous poet Nordahl Grieg, knew what was inside the boxes. The bank-staff and the lorry-drivers were all armed with revolvers.

In Lillehammer the gold was transferred to a special train, and sent north through the Gudbrandsdal Valley. In Otta the train was “camouflaged” with false litra numbers to cover up its real destination, and from Dombås the train was directed down to Åndalsnes on the Rauma line, where it arrived on the 20th April. British troops were landed in Åndalsnes, and the small town was under heavy bombardment from German planes. 1/3 of the gold cargo was loaded onto the British cruiser Galathea, the rest was supposed to be loaded on two other ships for security reasons. Meanwhile, to secure the train and its cargo, the train was backed up the valley to Romsdalshorn station, until 25th April, while shipping transport was prepared. As the Germans were reported to advance fast up the Gudbrandsdal Valley, the rest of the gold was loaded on trucks again and taken further to Molde. The Germans were eager to capture the gold, and all railway-personnel in Gudbrandsdal Valley was questioned, but the camouflage worked and the Germans never found out which route the gold-train had taken.

From Molde some of the gold was put onboard the British cruiser Glasgow, (if I'm not mistaken the King and the Crown Prince were also on board at the time and landed in Tromsø) and in the end of April shipped to England. The rest was loaded onto fishing vessels and other small vessels, and brought safely to Tromsø, a long journey in dangerous waters, as German planes were everywhere. Among others, the fishing vessels Alfhild and Staulvåg together with the small passenger Snorre, took part in this transport. From Tromsø the gold was shipped to England in the late days of May on the British cruiser Enterprise which arrived in Plymouth the 29th.May, and from there taken to London on a special train with heavy escort of soldiers and police.

In the night of the 15th.June the Norwegian freighter Bomma left England with the first cargo of gold for USA. The gold was loaded in barrels on deck, each barrel tied firmly to several other empty barrels, so the whole unit would stay afloat if the ship would be sunk. Another 13 transports followed. In addition to Bomma, the following Norwegian ships took part in this transport: Bra-Kar, Ida Bakke, Norma, and San Andres. The gold was safely deported in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and Bank of Canada. The gold and its long journey to safety became some kind of national symbol, and its real value could no longer be measured in money. The British Government was in the autumn 1940 in a desperate situation concerning the currency situation, and pressure was put upon the Norwegian Government to hand over the gold, but the Norwegian gold was already brought further across the Atlantic to Canada and USA during June and July 1940, on British and Norwegian merchant ships. Of the five Norwegian ships who brought the gold across the Atlantic, only Bra-Kar was lost during the war; it was set ablaze and damaged beyond repair during an air raid in Liverpool 1941".

Tore's Sources: Several local and national history books and notes.

Taken here: http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/bomma.html

In 1988, Oslo Mynthandel purchased the remains of the Central Bank of Norway's gold reserve from various banks in Canada and the United States for 100 million Norwegian Kroner (the biggest coin sales ever). The transaction was mediated by Spink and Son Ltd. (London). Even though there are no sources that confirm that, it seems banks of Great Britain also took big role in selling part of the Nordic hoard.

For those, who are interested to read about history of Russian gold, here is a small list of literature (on Russian):

1. Золото: прошлое и настоящее /под редакцией В. И. Букато и М. Х. Лапидуса. -Москва: Финансы и статистика, 1998 г.

2. К. А. Богданов. Адмирал Колчак - Санкт-Петербург: Судостроение, 1993 г.

3. Зинухов А. А. Не повторить золотых ошибок. Из истории Русского золота // Деловые люди. - 1991. - № 2.

4. Сироткин В. Г. Вернётся ли домой российское золото из Японии. Из истории вывоза остатков золотого запаса Российской империи в 1918 году // Столица. - 1991.

5. Сироткин В. Г. Вернётся ли на родину российское золото // Знамя. - 1992 г. - № 3


How Russian gold ended up in Norway? It's easy...

"... в 1920 г. ... большевики начинают умопомрачительный экспорт золота. Он шел в виде золотых монет царской чеканки через Норвегию и Швецию, откуда они переправлялись в Голландию и Германию - для вывоза в США. ... Саттон (указ. соч., с. 189) пишет, что в августе 1920 г. партия русского золота была получена банком "Дер Норске Хандельсбанк" как обеспечение платежей за покупку трех тысяч тонн угля в США. Но это было лишь начало. ..."

From book of: М. Калашников, С. Кугушев, related chapter from this book that is called: "Ключи к последнему Эльдорадо" may be found online here: http://www.army.lv/?s=1500&id=3409&c=0&p=1

But this is just one of many facts that tells how Russian gold become a part of Nordic hoard. In reality there were many, many transactions (shipments) that may be started as early as began WWI and ended in the late 1920's, or may be even early 1930's. Through Tallinn and other Baltic countries Russian gold was sent to Norway and Sweden, often melted down there (to hide that it is Russian) and then sent farther to Germany, Holland, Great Britain and the U.S. Obviously, some of the coins were never melted, kept intact and virtually as struck so we can enjoy collecting them nowadays.

WCO

Thanks for this thread - very infomative

I agree. This is a great thread, one of the most interesting I have seen posted here (and during a time when most coin boards are very quiet with very little being posted!).

Thanks to all who contributed!

Care to show where?

Ohh... BTW, here is the dealer where I purchased the coins:

http://www.roderickhughes.com/