These two roubles, Catherine II 1763 and Nicholas I 1859, are on eBay now. What do you all think of them? Do you think they are real?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

Both links point to the same auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RUSSIA-1-ROUBLE-1859-M...3QQcmdZViewItem

Both coins appear to be "no grade" coins due to harsh cleaning. Just my opinion.

WCO

Agreed.

If this seller (just like any seller specializing in slabs) is selling a coin without a "box" - it is no grade.

Finally, I hear the WORD.

Sorry for the posting mistake, and thank you Cheburgen for the correction.

Not every coin worth slabbing. For XF/AU or lower grade and common cheap coins there are just no reasons to slab since slabbing worth money. But better coins like those two Rubles should be slabbed of course. Since more people now realize that if expensive coin is not in a slab there is something wrong with it I guess dealers that are not specializing in slabbed coins will lose their business to those who do sell slabs. And if dealers who are "specializing in slabs" will sell a harshly cleaned coin such as 1763 Ruble without a warning that coin is "harshly cleaned", they will definitely lose their reputation since there are less and less buyers who does not understand what is being sold.

WCO

I tend to somewhat disagree with WCO.
1. Not everyone loves slabs. Look at the WWCC auctions. The auctioneer is a very respected dealer but never sells slabs; and what is interesting - he still has ENOUGH clients !
2. Russian coins of XVIII century in most cases are slabbed poorly by all grading companies. Only seldom do they realize that weak strikes, flan flaw , etc. are not the coin's problem but rather exceptions of the production.
3. This particular seller does really great job advertising his pretty ... mediocre stuff on EBay. He makes nice pictures, nice description , etc. However, to say honestly, I have not seen a single really scarce coin in his listing. So, here, I completely agree with IgorS - the seller slabs EVERYTHING. If it is not slabbed - it is a problem coin which does not really mean it is a very bad coin.

As always,

And where I said that everyone loves slabs?



Mr. Elmen earned his reputation and clients, he had over 50 auctions and decades in business. He sold many important collections and single coins. Collection of Brekke is one of them. But once he retires who else will be selling unslabbed coins? He does his business in old fashioned ways, black and white catalogues, no internet web-site, mail-bid only... this is not how modern businesses operate and find clients.



Coins are graded by comparisons not to just any coin, but to SIMILAR COINS IN THE SAME SERIES. So if there are crudely made (weak strikes, flan flaws... ) early coins they can be graded very high ONLY if there are no choice made coins in the same series (sharply struck, no flan flaws or laminations...). And since in most cases there are coins without laminations, flaws or without weak strikes then why worse looking coins should be graded higher? After all, weakness in strike, flan flaws and laminations are not pretty.

Best regards,
WCO

What is WWCC's address, please? Maybe he is about to get some new clients!

World-Wide Coins of California
P.O. Box 3684
Santa Rosa, CA 95402

elmen@sonic.net

His next auction is scheduled for May 17, 2007. The catalogues are just out.

RWJ

To tell honestly....This particular sale ( I believe it is #51) is not....very exciting . Just regular stuff , IMHO.

Regards from

I wonder if the coins are on consignment to this seller from someone else. Most other pictures seem to be in color, not black and white, which causes me to wonder if the seller took these pictures, or if he/she is just using pictures supplied by someone else (the owner?).

I would say washed in laundry

100%

Looks like people more carring about final high selling price than keep reputation or true seller.
Of course this point sucks. But most buyers will understand that where is the true.

I would like to make a correction to this point: it is valid ONLY for the US and, maybe, Canada, and not valid for Europe. It is almost no way to send the coins, e.g. from Germany to the US for grading - it would be risky, expensive and not worth. This is reflected in the point that most of the expensive coins are slabbed on eBay USA and I can't remember seeing ANY slabbed coin on eBay Germany.

This disproportion makes angry many dealers watching how, e.g., this particular seller sells ordinary garbage for a lot of money, since it is "slabbed" How stupid could people be if they fall onto such a cheap trick??? This is true - "Buy the coin, NOT a slab". In Europe slabs are not popular since you can't feel the coin, you can't prove the edge, you can't weight it and many other things you can't do. If we consider a huge number of slabbed fakes, we see that slabs harm more that they bring. This "invention" is fully discredited now.

Oh no ! Not again..Please !

It soon will be valid for entire world. If you don't know Italian grading company does grading and authentication of Italian coins, they are sealed in soft plastic, like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/10-LIRE-GOLD-1865-CERT...1QQcmdZViewItem


Canadian grading company ICCS puts coins into soft plastic too:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-TWENTY-FIVE-CENTS...1QQcmdZViewItem

Those two grading companies are good, honest and respected the same good as NGC and PCGS in the U.S.

There are grading companies in some other European countries too. Grading services mushroom fast, many of them are junk, have no knowledge to authenticate and grade coins correctly, but others are OK. Some of them will survive and become leaders in their countries. It will be a good habit to authenticate and grade coins before buying them, just the same good habit as to care about your health or finances.

It is good that many dealers are crazy looking how some other competitors are making money while they stay aside and watch. But dealers already realized that they can slab coins too, and many already doing that like crazy. It's either you earn or someone else does.

And what slabs bring more, harm or usefulness? You think they bring more harm? Have you ever seen large collections of harshly cleaned and then covered in PVC coins that could worth 100 times more if not that? Majority of collectors at large luck both culture and knowledge to deal with coins, they NEED professional help in conservation, authentication and grading of coins, the same as people need doctors when they are sick or lawyers when they have legal issues. Kisenish, you are trying to make profit by selling coins? OK, watch how flying_bostonian will be making one while you are angry will be selling THE SAME COINS for half. You are involved, so I understand your attitude towards the issue. There is only one advise, join the club, start slabbing your coins ASAP.

WCO

I'll try The only thing what irritates me - I can't send the coins from Germany to the US insured. Well, DHL may be the choice, but it's extremely expensive.

Can you explain me one thing I can't understand - how Mr. flying_bostonian or others can sell sometime cheap coins slabbed? they are sold for 20-30 USD. I can't get it, since as far as I know NGC takes 20-30 USD for one coin - where is the profit? or cheap coins can be slabbed for a little money?

If I would find a secure way to send the coins for grading and to receive them back, I'll do it for the very high grade coins and commemoratives (to sleep well ) I have in my own collection.

Thanks for your understanding, WCO, you got exactly my point. A friend of mine (selling coins on eBay USA) called me recently very irritated and asked how to send coins there, as he also sells the same coins as flying_bostonian, but for half the price

You are right - I have already expressed my point of view before, therefore it could be redundant. But this subject is constantly brought up by others and this is a forum, so DON'T SHUT ME UP!

It's easy why cheap coins sometimes sell for less than is the cost to slab them. You may lose on a single coin but win a lot on average. It is already known (but not everyone would tell you that) that the biggest price achieved when you start auctions low. This is more related to humans' psichology. People enjoy to play "bidding games", the more people want the coin, the more bids there are, the more others will want it too. This will lead to increasing number of bids, higher price, more people attracted, even more bids... Kind of gambling in bidding wars. So in case to get higher total result one have to risk sometimes lose money on one or two coins. flying_bostonian knows exactly what he is doing, he will prosper I think, and the only part there I do not like about him, why to sell cleaned coins without warning.

About NGC, you can become a member of American Numismatic Assoc. and then submit coins directly to NGC, or you can go with authorized dealer, who will do all the job.

WCO

To add to what WCO is saying about the seller: Not only is he selling the coins without revealing that they are harshly cleaned, he did not bother to respond to a direct question about it on the Cathrine rouble.

Probably "busy" to answer on e-mails.........................
and because there is only one answer could be

<he did not bother to respond to a direct question about it on the Cathrine rouble.

When you start to sell so much coins as he does, you'll be very busy to answer questions like: "what is the BIN?", "How much is shipping to China?", "Is this coin real?", "It's too expensive. I saw that the same coin was sold for $800, why are you selling it for $1600".
Well, at least I have the answer for the last question. WHY YOU DID NOT BUY IT?

If the coin is properly insured and there is a legal way to send this coin to the US, WHAT IS THE RISK? Expensive? 20-40$? Not worth? Yes, of course. Send me completely killed coin which is worth 10$ and spend 40$ for its shipping and I'll spend another 50$ for its grade.

Cherburgen, perhaps you don't know the postage system in Germany but recently I lost three packages from Germany straight in a row, all registered. Great service eh? It does make me understand Kisenish's situation. Kisenish there are some nice coins that I would be interested but the recent postage system in Germany has totally disgusted me. Sorry

Perhaps it would be nice if any of the major slabbing companies actually do consider setting up headquarters overseas like in the UK, Singapore, Australia, (all English speaking countries throughout the world) and we don't have to send them all to the US, taking longer time and such.

WCO might be right though, back in 1995 Australia did have their slabbing company but they started out too early and it broke down later. The only good reason why slabbing companies do exist is to detect problematic coins especially with the huge number of counterfeits popping out daily.

Sometimes if you ask me to bid on ebay, it does get a bit frightening especially with the ones coming from Belarus, Ukraine and China. It might be easy but what if an evil seller registers in the US? Unless there is high resolution photograph, you can't expect all sellers to provide such photos as most probably only a good fraction of them only know how to do so.

Indeed I would be much happier if I can hold the coins in my own hand, check edges etc but buying online? Tell me what is the best way that solves both counterfeits, problematic etc AND the seller being able to provide high resolution pictures. Of course the most optinum solution to this is that a dealer knows how to or hire professional photographers.

Did you send them yourself? Or you were the buyer? Ohhh... I see this "I lost three packages from Germany", well, then did you get any insurance compensation?

I can add this information: Unlike to sending from Germany to Europe countries, when you pay 1 Euro for every 100 Euro insurance (possible up to several thousands), there is no insured shipping available to USA, Canada and Israel. Usually sellers send the packages to those countries as a registered mail on the buyer's risk. None of the packages I sent this way have been lost but it is always a risk.

DHL might do this job, but it has not a good reputation either, since many packages from them have been lost and they don't want to give compensation when they get to know about the content of the package (coins)

You can read this sad disclaimer about DHL in every offer of Mr. Augsburger (augsburger_de). This is why I would not sleep if I send coins for several thousands of euros on a risky way...

The best thing would be the NGC headquartier in Europe.

Hi gxseries, for you I have a good news: I have just checked the post information - like sending to Europe, it is also possible to send the coins to Australia INSURED (1 Euro for each 100 Euro insurance, up to 2944 Euro) it is not a problem and there is no risk, since it's allowed and even required to send the coins in insured letters.

http://www.deutschepost.de//mlm.html/dpag/...land_010306.pdf

WCO,

Here is a coin that some people might classify as "expensive". It is not in a slab. What is wrong with it?

What are you trying to say? That rare and expensive coins can't be a "no grade" coins? Or that people do collect problem coins, especially rare when they unable to find a better specimen and/or have insufficient financial abilities to buy a better quality coin? Your Dassier Ruble, you are not looking for opinion since you already know about this coin. What is it then?

All I said that it is only fair to provide a warning when someone sells a problem coin, especially cleaned, with rim problems, tooling and mounts removed or ex-jewelry. All this may be not that obvious even if you look at pictures so many people fallen victims of dishonest sellers and overpaid a lot just to find out later that they purchased a piece of junk, very expensive may be, but junk.

regards,
WCO

I am saying that you made a sweeping, general statement that is not correct.

If I said that all crows are black, you would only have to produce one white crow to disprove my statement.

The Dassier is my white crow.

This was my statement: "Since more people now realize that if expensive coin is not in a slab there is something wrong with it..." I did not say ALL people, obviously you are one who does not realize... So I did not say "all crows are black", only that many and number is growing ...

I have to disappoint you about your Dassier Ruble. Your "crow" is black too if you take a closer look. Your Dassier Ruble is a "no grade" coin. It's been polished (harshly cleaned) and has some corrosion on reverse.

WCO

ToWCO
"Especially cleaned, with rim problems, tooling and mounts removed or ex-jewelry"

Bring down the price of the coins. I personally don’t care if coin was clean. Almost 90%-80% Russian coins of 18th century were cleaned and slabed by Grading companies…

I have never submitted it for grading, so you might be right about the "no grade".



Nonsense. I know what harsh cleaning looks like and this coin has no hairlines, nor has it been polished (although it has probably been dipped many years ago).



True, there is some corrosion on reverse.

The coin is not perfect, but you will have a hard time to find a better one. 18th century roubles seldom ever turn up in mint condition.

For comparison, here is lot 122 from MiM auction 43.

You do not care, that's your problem. I wish you not to be disappointed when you pay a lot for what you thought would be a super nice coin and later on found out that there was mount removed, hole professionally repaired, tooling and all this was hidden by extensive polishing. Since you don't care, I guess you will be happy with your purchase anyway.

Regards,

WCO

Well, high resolution picture of fields after the head will answer about cleaning. Can you do that? For now I only see oval darker area in fields after the head that usually means there was cleaning done. So I am 95% sure about cleaning, just it was a long ago. And if I to buy a Dassier Ruble I would buy a MiM's example for double the money rather than yours. I myself do not like "no grade" coins. And I like even less when a seller "conveniently" forgets to mention problems in the description or sells cleaned Fine coin as Choice BU.

WCO

WCO,


I have seen the coins posted here by Rarenum. I don't know him and have never met him, but the coins he has shown tell me that he is a sophisticated and knowledgeable collector. I don't think he is a fool.

I never said that he or someone else is a fool, you did.

WCO

Coin with corrosion and was cleaned. But it is great coin for collection (one year type).I was trying several times buying Dassier on the auctions then the price was above $1000.00, all the times some body place highest bid.No Luck

I`m sorry but Cleaned coins is SALVAGE.
So many people likes SALVAGES

It's like some people likes to drive salvage Mersedes than brand new Honda.

And they relise that Salvage Mersedes which price originaly 75k worth no more than 20k, and brand new Honda has the same 20k price.

I prefer Honda

In reality it is even worse. Those who likes Mercedes paid $75K for old junky Mercedes (instead of $20K what it actually worth) because seller "forgot" to mention in the description that it is old, after 2 accidents and salvaged after being underwater in Florida after hurricane.

WCO

1. I’m sorry for question .How many years you collect Russian coins? To named salvage cleaned coin.
2. Can You tell me haw mach cost Mercedes of 1930's-salvage?

1. much enough to make that decision.
2. Hmm, you know I don't know how much cost Mers 1930's, but I can guess how much cost Mers of 1800



But if be serious, let's compair price for Mersedes SALVAGE of 1930 and ORIGINAL Mers for 1930. got it?
Same is RUBLE os 1757 SLABBED AND ORIGINALto compair with ROUBLE SALVAGE of 1757 or whatever date.

Yes, of course I can. I will need get and return the coin from the bank vault, then upload high resolution scan.




You are welcome to spend your money as you wish. My coin is not for sale.




Your tastes are your tastes. They differ from mine.

I care more about pleasing myself and my own collecting interests than I care about what some slabber (who probably knows a lot less about Russian coins than I do) says or thinks.

However, I am quite confident that (slabbed or not) there will be many people who will be thrilled to buy my coin (when the day comes that I decide to sell), even if you are not one of them.

By the way, this coin which you find so unattractive was one of a handful of coins which I purchased from Randolph Zander's personal crown collection. Zander bought it (for his own collection) in 1969 from former dealer Hal Rosenberg and held onto it (after earlier selling off the bulk of his Russian collection) until I purchased it from him in 1985.

Why you add Memorial Ruble-"Salvage" to your profile? I would say nice coin, was cleaned before, now has nice light toning, possible gradable .One again I didn’t call your coin-"Salvage”, you did.