Dear community,

I would like to here your opinions on these two coins. Do you think they are genuine or fake and why?

Thanks a lot!

#1

#2


http://staraya-moneta.coinsportal.ru/viewt...sc&start=30

Ok I admit this is very difficult and just based upon what I see something is wrong.

The first coin has an unusual die break which I don't remember seeing. Also the relief on the bottom of Alexander I's neck and the location of Gube's name seems a bit "off". However what might be more disturbing is that I think I have a relatively similar coin to THAT! (just without the die crack) I believe the first coin is a proof coin. I would later post my coins in a new poll to see if they are both counterfeits.

The second coin, I can't tell. Since you asked "do you think it's genuine or fake" you obviously arose some suspicion there but I decided if I can't tell what's wrong, I wouldn't comment on it, although the patina looks like it was stripped off and then reapplied later.

Hi!
Here is my personal opinion.
The first coin is of questionable origin (can not say more - need to see the coin):
1) Do not remember seeing die breaks on this type
2) The Column should have higher relief
3) The Imperor's eye and nose do not match known specimens
All these issues do not necessary mean that the first coin is a fake , however, they need to be answered or explained.

The second coin is genuine.

Best regards,

I don't really collect commemoratives, so I don't have a coin here for comparison. However, in addition to the suspicious die break, there are little raised marks inside some of the letters on the obverse of that coin which could be tooling marks.

Also, the angle of the vertical part of the hard sign at the end of "АЛЕКСАНДРЪ" is tilted rather much relative to the vertical part of the "Р" immediately preceding it. These two letters are almost parallel on the second coin. All in all, I think the shapes of the letters in the legend is a bit irregular which makes the coin suspicious to me.

As to the second coin, the overall toning and wear look genuine to me -- it is quite difficult to fake something like this, so I will guess that this coin is genuine.

Hi guys,

I saw the coin with exactly same 3 die cracks - one under the portrait, one between B and M, one across the column from 11 to 5 o'clock. It was sold on the eBay USA around a year ago. This is the link, although with wrong pictures now, below are the pictures I saved from this offer:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...ADME:L:RTQ:DE:1

Unfortunately, these pictures convinced me even more that the coin was a fake. Just take a critical look. The fact that the coin was sold does not really prove anything. Anything stamped RUSSIA sells these days.

Dear guys,

If somebody is interested, I made pictures of edge, as well as additional pictures of both sides:


#1:

#2:

kisenish,


I enjoyed the way you trying to "authenticate" your coins. Asking the same questions on many forums and let many people from many "numismatic realms" to vote if coins are authentic or not seems amazing.

Do you believe that if more people vote than their answers will be close to the truth? It ever crossed your mind that 100 people can ALL be wrong? What are you going to do with the voting info from different forums?

Are you finally closer to find answers to YOUR questions about authenticity of YOUR coins?

I'll give you just single advise. Authenticate your coins with services that are qualified.
And once authenticated, please post the info on all forums where you asked your questions. Then at least we will see how reliable is opinion of a crowd.

WCO

This is a very good point ... to quote Helmut Schmidt, former Bundeskanzler of Germany:
"Die Mehrheit hat nicht immer recht." (trans.: "The majority is not always right.")

Reliable? Could be just chance!

It all depends on this: Who do you WANT to believe?

"The majority is not always right", but, surprisingly, the average results of a survey of a diverse and qualified group usually are.

There is an interesting book on this subject:

The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many Are Smarter Than the Few and How Collective Wisdom Shapes Business, Economies, Societies and Nations, first published in 2004, is a book written by James Surowiecki about the aggregation of information in groups, resulting in decisions that, he argues, are often better than could have been made by any single member of the group. The book presents numerous case studies and anecdotes to illustrate its argument, and touches on several fields, primarily economics and psychology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

Followed the link (above) and found this text:

Failures of crowd intelligence
Surowiecki studies situations ... in which the crowd produces very bad judgment, and argues that in these types of situations their cognition or cooperation failed because (in one way or another) the members of the crowd were too conscious of the opinions of others and began to emulate each other and conform rather than think differently.

....

That was exactly my point why no one should try to authenticate coins on a large public forum, and even worse, on many forums. No difference WHAT ANSWERS one receives, he never knows on the first place if it is sum of individually thinking people or just group of people who emulate one another ... And I'd rather believe in the second...

Here are voting results so far from other Russian forums:
-------------------------
STARAYA MONETA:
Колонны - подлинники или фуфела?
Обе монеты – подлинные 0% [ 0 ] Both coins are genuine
#1 – фуфел 5% [ 6 ] #1 is fake
#2 – фуфел 0% [ 0 ] #2 is fake
Обе монеты – фуфельные 25% [ 2 ] Both coins are fake

Всего проголосовало : 8 Total voted 8.
-------------------------
COINS.SU:
Колонны - подлинники или фуфела?
Обе монеты - подлинные 13% [ 3 ] Both coins are genuine
#1 - фуфел 56% [ 13 ] #1 is fake
#2 - фуфел 8% [ 2 ] #2 is fake
Обе монеты - фуфельные 21% [ 5 ] Both coins are fake

Всего голосов : 23. Total voted 23.

-------------------------

Best regards,
WCO

P.S. Still would like to learn the result of REAL authentication of these two coins. Would not be much surprised if those voting results are another example of "Failures of crowd intelligence".

Oh I forget to ask you Ilya. What is your opinion on both coins?

The reason why I posted voting on different forums is to see the opinion of the people who, I believe, are more specialists than NGC and PGCS taken together. I saw many slabbed coins on major auctions which were fakes. It is also true that I have / had my own opinion and just want to discuss these coins with the representative number of people.

As in your slogan, WCO - "Knowledge is power" This is because I don't only want to know opinions whether coins are genuine, but also would like to get an explanation why and, thus, to increase my own qualification. It works, BTW, since I got also some personal messages with many details regarding these coins. I'm very thankful to these people helping me.

No specialist can authenticate/grade coins looking at pictures. Of course there are cases when fakes are crude and immediately recognazable, but this is not the case. Everyone who tried and gave you their opinions by doing so stated "I am no specialist". So for now you have opinions of many non specialists, even worse, opinion of a crowd that may be ALWAYS wrong or right and you never know what may be the case.



To increase your own qualification I suggest you read books on authentication techniques, there are plenty on the subject. They are not about Russian coins though, but once you read you will see that Russian coins does not stand separatly from other world coinage, everything general is true for Russian coins as well.

That's right, knowledge is power, but not misleading information in quantities supplied on forums. I see you don't trust much to grading services. That's unfortunate, since with this kind of coins they will answer with 99.9% accuracy.

If you are interested you can do the following:
1. You tell everyone what is YOUR personal opinion on authenticity of these two coins. You have them in your hands and for sure it is better than to look on any pictures.
2. We already know how different forums voted.
3. Than you send the coins to NGC for authentication/grading.
4. You post results of grading on the same forums (pictures of NGC labels)

How do you like my plan? I can even help you with NGC if you want.

WCO

P.S. I do not have ANY opinion about authenticity of your coins and I did not vote since this is 5-th choice that is missing in poll.

So basically you are saying that who gave him opinion about these coins is no specialist and you, who do not have ANY opinion about these coins, are. That is very nice.

Sergey, twisting the meaning again? Nice twist.

I said three things:

1. Would be wise to send the coins to a grading service NGC or PCGS
2. Authentication is not possible by looking at pictures provided and it is why
3. I do not have ANY opinion on authenticity of both coins


WCO

1. Yeah it would be nice if he wants to sell them.

2. Authentication is possible by looking at the pictures of the edges provided and it is why

3. I do have a very certain opinion about these 2 coins. Number 1 so-called proof with die breaks. No good. Fake. Number 2 genuine.

RWJ, I would appretiate to hear if you have any opinion on authenticity of these 2 coins? And if yes, then what it is? And if you don't have any opinion then why?

Thank you.
WCO

Ilya, gimme your opinion about these 2 edges. Thanks.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6995/1519lf1.jpg
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9844/2920wm1.jpg

I will let Basok answer you:
http://www.coins.su/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14904&start=60
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Basok
флудер 7-го разряда

Да.. НИКОГДА не видел чтобы так хорошо совпадал шаг зубцов на обеих монетах, если одна из них фальшивая. Моё мнение что обе монеты нормальные а 84% проголосовавших что как минимум одна из них фальшак просто мудозвоны. Так, без обиды сказано, с любовью. Голосуйте, голосуйте... проголосуйте что вообще все в мире монеты это фуфло. Демократия решит судьбу нумизматики. Здорово!

kisenish, если вы верите большинству голосов и согласны продать эту монету за нормальную цену, дайте мне знать. С удовольствием куплю.

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Translation.

Yes... Never seen reeding being this perfect and exactly the same on both coins, if one of them is a fake. My opinion is that both coins are authentic and 84% of people who voted that one of the coins is a fake are just idiots (in reality much harsher word). I am saying it with love. Vote, vote.... vote that all coins in the world are fakes. Democracy will decide the fate of numismatics! Perfect!

kisenish, if you believe to majority of voters and agree to sell that ("fake") coin for reasonable price, then let me know. I will buy with pleasure.
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Cheburgen, you can't even blame me that I said that. And I tried to warn you and kisenish, didn't I? Still believe in opinion of a crowd or now will listen that it may be another example of "Failures of crowd intelligence"?

WCO

I understood everything except "мудозвоны" ... it's not in any of my dictionaries, either ...

Bad word, very bad. Not a dictionary word. Basok seemed to be very pissed of to see so many "specialists" in one place.

WCO

deleted

The only problem is he is changing his mind everyday. Personally, I still think that the first coin is a fake.


"Я подозреваю что монета которую он купил у Вальтера Аугзбургера фуфло". He probably remembers this phrase.

I guess that being an arrogant ass works well as a business strategy for Basok.

Cheburgen, say hello to ТимВик on that forum from me! Say him I confirm his status, теперь он мальчик-колокольчик!

WCO

This is the best PR possible in Russia.

WCO

I will.

you just need to use a numismatic dictionary.... see attached.

Thank you,was helpfull attachment.

I tend to agree with the statement that it is often hard to say whether the coin is false or genuine simply from looking at the pictures of the coin (or its edge, for that matter) That is why I have no opinion as to the second coin. However, I believe that the case of the first coin is pretty clear (to me). The first coin has a large diebreak. It was also provided by the owner that the coin is a Proof (not prooflike, Unc, etc.) Now, Proof issue was very special. It was done on a screw press, or medallic press. It was made utilizing multiple "strikes" (I use this word for lack of a better one). Such was done to achieve perfection. Now, what kind of perfection is achieved by striking the coin using a broken die?! A coin like this would never pass the control. Remember what happened to the Family roubles struck with a broken die? But, what do we see? We see a proof coin struck with a die that has a pretty advanced die break. I, personally, do not believe in proofs made with a broken die. In my opinion, it can only be a novodel or a fake. Is it easy to crack a die on a screw press, where there is no striking involved, but only slow gradual pressure? It is probably possible if a great number of coins is made with the same die. However, the Proof issue of this coin was pretty small, which is indicated by the rarity of Proofs. Then, why would a die be broken from a relatively short work cycle? And, why would a damaged Proof coin leave the mint?
On top of it all, I have never seen an original Proof commemorative coin with a die break.

The above leads me to believe that the Proof coin is a fake.

The second (Unc.) coin looks ok. But, if Mr. Basok's logic is used, then I must believe that the other coin is also fake, because the edges are identical, and I strongly beleave that the Proof coin is a fake. However, any serious metal shop can copy that edge perfectly. Thus, I cannot say anything as to the second coin.

P.S. Does the column on the Proof look a bit wider than it should be? Or is it my eyes failing me...

I was trying to rise the same issue on Staraya Moneta. The issue about proof with die break. Since Basok is saying that both coins are genuine that automatically means we have a proof with die break. Just one question. How this piece is survived if proof coin supposed to be perfect and you should also think about the purpose of striking proofs. I personally asked Mr. Basok did he see in his life even once a proof with a die break and he said no. Ok, now according to him it's possible to have such coin. Have a good night.

P.S I also strongly believe that it's not a novodel either considering the purpose of striking novodels. So what we have here unique (sorry not unique the guy showed another such coin sold so it makes them 2) proof with die break which was not described anywhere in the literature and not seen by everybody till this moment or just a simple fake.

You probably forget what he used to say about YOU as a "specialist". It's OK. People have a tendency to forget such things. Just let me know if you need a little reminder so I can find his posts about you and publish them here so we all can enjoy the beatiful russian language with english translation of course. Then I think we all can use this

This edge looks suspicious to me. The reeding is poorly defined and tapers toward the edge. In the valleys between the reeding, there are small blems visible. Also, I do not see the fine scratches that I would expect to be created when this coin is ejected from the collar. For these reasons, I think that this coin is counterfeit.




This edge looks much better. Notice how the reeding is more evenly rectangular in its shape, the absence of blems in the valleys of the reeding and the presence of fine scratches in the reeding caused by the ejection of the coin from the collar after striking.

Mr. Basok can buy the first coin if he wishes. However, I will not buy it from him if he does.

Kisenish, if you have the coins, can you do US a favor and weight them if possible? I have a vague memory that mine registered 20.7~8grams on a pretty cheap scale. I will have to get an electronic scale that registers 2 decimal places for more accurate reading.

I will be uploading my coins for opinion soon so stay tune...

Very interesting dictionary ... ... I think I shall need to get this one soon! Does it have a title, and perhaps an ISBN number?

I would sell it to him if one of my coin could arise such debates about authenticity. If he's got money to buy suspicious coins it's not my problem. Good luck with it.

#1 - 20,52 g, #2 - 20,79 g

Very interesting, other people think exactly the opposite The second edge in your post correspond to the coin #1

If someone says they think a coin is bad, it is helpful if they can offer reasons why they think that is the case.

Sometimes it is nothing any more specific than the coin "doesn't look right", the style is wrong.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't like the first edge for the reasons given. For coins produced with special care, it seems to me that the edge reeding should be more regular and better defined.

Fortunately for me, my income does not depend upon my expertise as an authenticator.

Basok is saying that both edges are ok, so accordingly both coins are genuine. We have a discussion on the other forum about it. Some people are saying to him that no matter what's on the edge they still see a lot of differences on both sides of the coins, so one of them is fake. I guess, the owner of the coins should take the advise of Ilya and send the coins to PCGS or NGC. In this case, we are going to get the 3rd, more independent and probably more presumably professional opinion.

С удовольствием, bobh. I found this in a bookstore near Harvard many years ago.

Dear kisenish,

My advise - sell it to Mr Basok (or anyone else willing to buy )!
The sooner you do it the better as you have already made a mistake discussing your coin openly with the audience. It now has very..."unpleasant pedigree" anyway.

With me regards,

From what I remember with my poor memory from 5 Column robles I sold in past 6 months, the second edge pictured on this page is good and is original and has whatever property of an original 1834 & 1839 strike you can name.

The first one is bad. Trash it to Basok, whatever he gives you for that piece.

Thank you, Kisenish, for very educational and clear photo-report, respect!

That's right. That was my point from the beginning. Kisenish, send both coins to NGC and then post the results on this forum. We'll see the reliability of asking authenticity questions on forums, which is also valuable info.

WCO

My "нумизматический словарь" arrived yesterday from Amazon ... many thanks to you, белка!