Ive had this in my collection for 12 years, and now suspect its authenticity. Any help would be appreciated!

reverse

edge.

well u can hold the coin verticly on the observe with ur thumb and index finger slowly spin it if the reverse of the coin is not on 12 oclock or 6 oclock but on left or right or any other direction then its a fake.

u can also see if the letters are in proportional size(same size continuing around the coin in a straight line) if not its a fake.

weight is 428 grains, converted to grams is 27.73
is this typical?

Squirrel,

1. While it is possible in some cases to make conclusions on authenticity of a coin by looking at its pictures (when fake is crude and easily resognizable) in many cases it is not just possible.

2. I suggest you send the coin to a grading service (ANACS preferably) and this way you will find out for sure if your piece is authentic or not. You will also have third party opinion that you may use as a reference to request a refund from the seller (if the coin found not authentic) or will have a piece on mind (if found to be authentic).

WCO

Thank you WCO. That is a good idea, and that is why i will not mention the name of the dealer, as he is someone you all undoubtedly know, and if my coin is (I hope!) genuine, i would NOT want to cause a problem for him!

The purpose of this post is to see if anyone has seen this exact die set, if it exists, or can point to a specific obvious flaw that would indicate suspicion.

Thanks. Squirrel

While I do not want to give out any verdict about your coin, I can say that authentic coin with similar design is listed in catalogues. Once you do the grading please tell the community what they found.

WCO

I will do that.
is it possible to post an illustration of the reference you have?
also, being new here, how do i post an image bigger than 100k?

You might want to open a free account at http://www.imageshack.us and you should be able to upload images up to 1mb, which is sufficient I hope

I think your coin is OK.
It is a known type. Here is one just like it.
What is it you do not like?

I think it is Diakov 16, Bitkin 330, Uzdenikov 588, Severin 475A.

He did not like that 3 people in another thread (http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=12369) said that this coin is a fake.

WCO

Thank you IgorS.
I can sleep better tonight. see thread refered above as to my concern. Yours is the first time ive seen the same variety.

Why ANACS is preferred?

ANACS does grading differently than NGC or PCGS. Looks as this coin have some problems, like incrustation on obverse, minor laminations and lifeless "washed out" fields that may be as such due to old cleaning/polishing. In this case if coin sent to NGC or PCGS it may be returned back without slab and WITHOUT AUTHENTICITY CHECK since it would not be slabbed anyway. The problem mentioned will be "cleaning" or "corrosion". It will be unknown if the coin is authentic or not. For definetely authentic coins NGC puts a blue label along with "no grading" verdict that "this coin may be encapsulated by NCS as genuine". But they in many cases does not provide this label for coins that require expert opinion and/or tests performed to reach a verdict (like all platinum, rare Russian early coinage, etc.).

ANACS will slab this coin anyway just will note problems on the holder. The only thing that may prevent slabbing is non authenticity verdict for the coin. So ANACS does authenticity check in any case unlike NGC or PCGS.

This is why I suggested to send this particular coin (and any other coins that may have problems but need authenticity check) to ANACS rather than NGC or PCGS.


WCO

WCO might have a point. The patina is very questionable, which made me raise alarms, probably in a wrong direction.

Clear enough, thanks!

well since there is no coin authintication service here in bahrain a.k.a nowhere i use simple primitive coin authintication methods which i learned from watching experts grade coins (my granpa a devoted coin collecter but my granma sold his collection after he passed away (may he rest in peace) i will make a new topic on how to authinticate coins your self.
i will post the link may be u guys can get a few tips and also give me tips. The authinticating methods i post are the same methods most pro coin graders use.simple and easy to do hope u like it.

WCO's reason is not exactly correct.

If a coin is sent to NCS (Numismatic Conservation Services) it will ALWAYS go through the authentication process. If it is genuine, it will be slabbed by NGC , if not - by NCS. So, in this case it (NCS/NGC) is much better than ANACS since:
1) NCS can also provide conservation per your request that I did find very useful.
2) You can actually get NGC slab instead of lousy ANACS
Thanks.

here is the link i promised

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=12398

Loyal Citizen, unfortunately you are wrong in your statements. If the coin will be found non authentic it will neither be slabbed by NGC nor by NCS. Besides what is the point to send for CONSERVATION a coin if you want only AUTHENTICATE it. NCS will charge 1% for evaluation plus 3 % for conservation, cost of grading will be in addition to that. You are right that if coin is sent to NCS it will go through authenticity check anyway, but doing it this way is about the same as to scratch your left ear with your right arm.

Besides you are saying ANACS slab is a "lousy" comparable to NGC slab. But this is wrong comparison too. Try to compare ANACS slab to NCS slab (which will be most likely for this coin if authentic). Which one is "lousy" and which one you'd rather prefer?

WCO

WCO, you just got it wrong:
1. I've never said that NCS (or NGC) will slab a fake coin. What I have said was that ANACS is not the only choice to have a coin in quetion (in this case 1 rouble 1720) authenticated - please read thoroughly what I have posted.
2. If you take two problem but authentic coins in ANACS-problem and NCS holders I'd personally prefer NCS...but this , of course, depends on your taste level.
Best regards.

Thanks for correcting the first line of your reply - it was not "extremely" polite. I'm really happy that you've realized that BEFORE you were told.

I do not know how it is perceived in the US but when I see NCS slab - I am always cautios since the coin may be problem in respect of cleaning or damage.

ANACS could be a better choice.

That is exactly the prupose of the NCS slab - to hold a problem coin ! What you see is what you get !
NCS DOES NOT SLAB NON-PROBLEM COINS unless you just want them authenticated w/o assigned grade.

Loyal Citizen,

You wrote exactly the following:



And what I comprehend from this: "Authentic coins are slabbed by NGC while not authentic coins are slabbed by NCS". Forgive me if I "understood" something the wrong way.

Most likely you wanted to say that "authentic and problem free coins are graded and slabbed by NGC while authentic coins with problems are slabbed (without grading) by NCS".

You are right, there are many ways to authenticate this coin. I offered the most reasonable way from my point of view. Your choice does not look that reasonable for me, but may be someone else will like it. Some people like NCS slabs, but many does not and prefer ANACS slabs for half a price and with actual grading (NCS does not do grading).

WCO

Lousy ANACS? I suppose we all have our opinions, but I place vote with ANACS. At the time I last used them (2 years ago), they were cheap, the slabs look decent, and I was able to authenticate a number of roubles in my collection. I avoid NCS slabs personally. I dont think there is a right or wrong answer. For me, detecting fakes is the highest priority.

Guys , you're talking about 2 different things. Lets compare "PROBLEM" holders:
ANACS and NGC(NCS). I believe the choice is clear !!!

I guess you all meant new ANACS non-problem holder: I like it too but it has nothig to do with problem coins - they never get into new holders (or, at least, are not supposed to).
Best regards, LC

LC, I am not too clear on what you are saying. First you said that that NCS will slab a fake. Now you are talking about slabbing a "problem" coin? Please correct me if I am wrong, but the question was clear: "Is the coin presented authentic or not?" All in all, the ANACS way seems cheaper, more accepted, and does the trick of authentication. Who cares about plastic? Who cares about micrograding? Dealers, investors. Who ever said that slab protects coins better than Intercept Shield, for instance? I personally hate plastic holders because I like touching the coin (if only its edge).

I think the main question should be about the pricing and quality of authentication service provided by the two agencies. I wonder which one is better at determination of fakes? I had seen a fair share of fakes in both holders. However, I think NGC and PCGS are "winning" the race so far as it pertains to copper coins. Not sure about silver. When it comes to patterns, which I personally like and try to collect, US services have nothing to check them against. NGC simply sends it to one of the dealers for an expert opinion. I do not need to tell you what politics becomes involved at that time... Let just say, I would prefer the expert opinion of Shiryakov (authenticates coins in russian museum) over any US grading company when a Russian coin is at issue. He has no financial reason to "make a mistake". The problem is, he is in Russia. (IMXO)

I'm sorry but there must be some kind of misunderstanding here. I believe that NCS stands for "Numismatic Conservation Services", that is, they will only conserve coins that they believe that they can conserve and will send it to NGC if it's successful. If not, what happens is that NGC might mark it as cleaned which will not be graded and even looked at unless you just want it marked as genuine with no grade assigned.

On the other hand, what ANACS previously did was to grade coins even though they might be cleaned, scratched etc and assign a nett grade.

I believe what WCO said is that what NGC would do is to just look at the coin whether if it's bodymarked, cleaned etc, and if it is, no more research is done.

What is the point of this if a coin is supposely genuine but has problems, rather than a super high quality counterfeit that has the "right" color patina? What we are after is a company that actually does the job for detecting counterfeits isn't it?

On the other hand, ANACS supposes does it's research first and then assign the final grading. Am I on the right track WCO? That's what I took it as.

First let me clear the situation. Seems we are all lost here. We were discassing what would be the most reasonable way to authenticate this particular coin that has some problems. There are many ways, send it to Russian State Historical Museum (Shiriakov &Co.), send it to any grading service in the U.S. or send it to Russian coin experts who does authentication of Russian coins for grading services (we all know who they are).

Considering coins's state of preservation, it's residence and even cost and quality of authentication I suggested sending it to ANACS. ANACS would do authentication and if authentic will encapsulate the coin into their slab with noted problems and grade assigned. It is cheap and better than sending to NCS. NCS holder will cost double the price and will have no grade assigned since they do not do grading but authentication only. May be someone (defenitely Loyal Citizen) likes this way to authenticate (sending to NCS) - I do not mind. Do as you pleased. That is one more way out of many. Is it the most reasonable? I do not think so, but it is just my opinion.

WCO

and I second that opinion -- ANACS is cheaper and more accepted than NCS. Even if they make a mistake in authentication, you will have an ANACS slab to ease your mind.

Promise - this is the last one

NCS prices:
A. AUTHENTICATION & ENCAPSULATION
Up to $500 $10
$501-2,500 $15
$2501-5000 $20
$5001-10,000 $25
$10,001-25,000 $35
Over $25,000 $40

A. AUTHENTICATION & DETAIL GRADING
Up to $500 $12
$501-2,500 $18
$2501-5000 $24
$5001-10,000 $32
$10,001-25,000 $40
Over $25,000 $48

ANACS prices:
All Non U.S. Mint Coins
3 days $45 per coin plus shipping all values
7 days $28 per coin plus shipping max value: $5,000/coin
15 days $22 per coin plus shipping max value: $2,000/coin
Economy $18 per coin plus shipping max value: $500/coin

So, if this 1720 rouble is , for example, estimated at $1000-1500, then:
1. NCS authentication and encapsulation will cost $15
2. NCS authentication and detail grading will cost $18
3. ANACS authentication and grading will cost $22

Now, you tell me what's cheaper !

This would be great for us who are not residents of Russia, except for the fact that once they are in Russia, it is illegal to send them out of the country again ... ... or is there a special way to do this?

Yes, there actually is a legal way to do all this. Documents should be filed that your coin(s) are being temporary imported into Russian Federation for authentication purposes. Papers should be signed by Russian State Historical Museum and presented to Ministry of Culture. Once approved by Ministry of Culture - papers should be presented to and approved by Russian Customs. This is how any art or antiques enter Russian Federation for temporary exhibitions (exhibitions and authentication purposes are quite legal and will allow return of items back to their respective owners, i.e. export from Russian Federation). Then all the papers should be presented along with actual coin(s) to customs when entering Russian Federation.

This is very long and hard but legal way, from my experience no one does that except museums or large organizations. No one wants all the difficulties for just authenticating a coin.

WCO

Hi,

WCO,

I`m agree with your opinion 100%

Even if there is a way, Bobh, you have exactly 38 days left to do this. All Russian museums cease to issue any authenticity documents to collectors on commercial basis as of January 1st, 2007. At present By-Laws of Russian museums are rewritten and this matter will be stopped on 1st of January. So, there will be no more papers for collectors with GIM letterhead and seal and with Mr. Shiryakov or Mr.Zaitcev signature.

Actually this is RossOhranKultura, not the Ministry.

Oh geez, seems like the procedure is so difficult!

I have a better silly idea, that is to invite Mr. Shiryakov overseas and have all of us authenticiate all our questionable coins to him. (although it's too unlikely)

What would happen after 2007? Would it actually get more difficult? And I thought Russia's entry to WTO would make some aspects slightly easier

OK, whatever is the organization now. It used to be Ministry of Culture long ago, but things changed as I see. With this new Russian law that prohibits government organizations to provide authenticity expertise and complete luck of commercial organizations Russia once more goes to chaos. This time on Numismatic, Antiques and Art fronts. All sorts of "experts" will surface soon.

WCO

Not a new idea, and it may be cheaper then doing all the paperwork. But who wants Shiriakov without Russian State Historical Museum seal-n-papers after 38 days?

WCO

Well, your concept of expertise is quite different from what I and other collectors perceive (this is not only coins but all antiques in general).

It does not matter too much the letterhead or company name on a slab!

What really matters is:
- names of the experts with their years of experience and number of past expert work
- possiblity to make comparative analysis with authentic items
- possibility to make technical analysis

Yes, it is different. I believe into team efforts. Great team of experts each single one of them with prompt experience, organized and with proper equipment, procedures, authenticity and counterfeit detection techniques, etc. For me it matters more than any single expert. Experts come and go; grading companies, museums, professional expert organizations - stay. Name earned as an organization for me matters much more than name of a single expert. In this sense GIM will always be a GIM, no matter if Shiriakov is there or not.

You forgot that Shiriakov without Russian State Historical Museum (GIM) team (Uzdenikov, Melnikova...) without GIM's collection of coins to look at and compare to specimens in question, without their equipment (and they have a lot now, including ability to analyze metal alloy ingredients), without all this he is just Shiriakov. One expert out of many. I would not want him as an expert outside of GIM's structure since he would lose most of his abilities to do the job.

I suggest not to speak for "other collectors" that they think the same way as you, some of them have their own opinions and they may differ from yours.

WCO

Please reread my previous message about 3 parts of expert body (experiense, comparison with authentic coins, equipment).

FYI - Alla Melnikova passed away. Mr. Uzdenikov is not making any expert job already.

That's sad. I have no knowledge of what is going on in there.

Name of the organization that did expertise ("name on the slab" in our case) still matters, and you also know why. That is why people discuss lists of "favorite" (in our case most trusted) grading services, expert organizations, etc. They trust some and do not trust others. I would trust expert opinion of Museum of Grabar or Tretiakov Gallery if speaking about Russian Art and would not trust some expert-alone who does the same . The same with coins.

WCO

I know why that matters for you - your business is sale of slabbed coins with those names on the slab.

But remember what any book Coins for Dummies says: "collect coins not slabs" (one could add "nor GIM papers") It is up to collector to decide if the coin is good or fake. The name on the slab or on the GIM paper is just a tool for collector to make his decision.

Interesting thinking that dealers need grading companies to fool collectors. Who need who in reality? I think it is mutually beneficial for all three: Grading services earn money by doing a good job, dealers grade coins and pay to grading services and COLLECTORS NEED GRADED COINS. Very few collectors are experts in grading and authentication. You too are not among experts and therefore need expert opinion on your coins. Most of collectors want to buy AUTHENTIC and PROBLEM FREE coins and third party grading is the only alternative.

Slabbed by reputable organization coins (like NGC or PCGS) have THIRD PARTY INDEPENDENT EXPERT OPINION on their authenticity and grade. Any company in Russia that will start doing the same (selling coins authenticated and more importantly graded by independent third party) will prosper and gain indefinite trust from collectors and society. For now there are none of the sort, even the best auctions in Russia sell cleaned low quality trash for extraorbitant prices and "forget" to enlighten the buyers about cleaning or other problems.

WCO

I do not see how grade could be more important than good\fake status. I did not say fooling - you did

However I think that of course it is not for fooling. TPG is good for the trade and is good for the customers too - no doubt about that, so no need to repeat it again, thank you