Fooling collectors is what Russian companies are doing by selling them problem "no grade" coins without specifying it in item's description.

It's a pity you do not see that the problem of selling low quality "no grade" coins is bigger than authenticity issues. Somehow most people can manage to avoid crude fakes and somehow recognize many of them, they ask opinion of a friend-numismatist, look catalogues, show their coins on internet forums for opinion. But most do not recognize problem coins even when they see them, and therefore this problem is much bigger.

WCO

Ilya, look at the title of this thread. Who cares if this 1720 rouble was cleaned or dipped or toned if the main point - real or fake - is still unanswered. Even young collector with due effort will soon recognize a coin with true mint luster and tell 'full red' from dipped and sulphur toned 'red brown'. However telling real or fake 1720 rouble will take years and dozens of real coins.

You told yourself that the best way is to send this rouble to ANACS where they will slab it anyway provided that the piece is real. It is better than get the coin back just with "No Grade. Cleaned" NGS tag.

Second thought is that here in Russia we have a great number of hoarded coins. It is easier (believe me!) to metall-detect 18 century rouble in the field than to find the same rouble in MS-64+ condition with nice and attractive toning. In Russia hoarded coins are plenty, I am sure only a miserable percentage of those earth coins would pass any grading in the US. However many of those are really nice and desirable pieces and sometimes you have to compromise with a little of corrosion to have a rare piece in the collection. A recent example is 1 kopeck 1762 (!) discovered by a metall-detector near Ekaterinburg. When the coin passed GIM - they wrote that this is the best known piece surpassing the analog in the museums. The coin was badly cleaned after being digged out, it brought about 12000 US in the auction and even in NO GRADE condition it is still the best piece known.

What I am trying to say is that condition of the coin is of utmost importance for a collector like myself, being that a slabbed coin or not. But first thing first - if you like the coin, you must answer at first if it is real or fake. Sometimes I do not bother to even look at a cleaned or damaged coin - I am not interested at all, so why would I care if that is fake or real, but when I need the coin - that is different matter.

PS Let's finish this discussion - I am affraid people are already bored

PLEASE ...NOT AGAIN !!! EVERY FORUM HAS THIS ...LETS FOCUS ON THIS PARTICULAR COIN...

Thanks for the great info all of you. This is fascinating.
I just collect old russian coins as a hobby. its fun. I really like timofei's story about the 1762. It gets to the point.
ive never bought a slabbed coin. seems like cheating to me. The thrill of the hunt is what im in for.

to the point of my question about my 1720 ruble, seems to me based on the photo and reference from IgorS, ive got an original coin. I never said it should be in a museum, and i could care less if someone cleaned it up 100 years ago. Its still pretty.
SQUIRREL

This a very old thread, and i dont want to resurrect the off topic issues within the old thread, but a coin of this same variety 1720, Bitkin 330, just sold at the CNG auction.
obviously much higher grade than my example, but boy, somebody really wanted it!
http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=115967

The CNG auction lots were of very high quality and sold in a very hot market. The breathtaking selling prices reflect those facts.